Electric Panel

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21

Originally Posted By: rking
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Ron,


FYI up here No insurance will touch 60 amp services and the knob and tube is touch and go as well, some will, some will not. It depends on what the licensed electrician that the insurance company forces them to hire to inspect it has to say about the quality.
the aluminum wiring must also be inspected by a licensed electrician before an insurance company will issue a policy in most cases.
In a way it makes my job a bit easier, but usually I have to explain to my clients why the insurance companies feel this way, although my other hat as a volunteer firefighter helps in explaining that one ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)

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Muskoka Home Inspections
"Wisdom is the Anticipation of the Consequences"
Steering Committee Member At Large

22

Originally Posted By: craig weisensel
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same goes for wisconsin


insurance companys absolutely


will not cover a home with 60 amp

23

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Thank god for insurance companies…without them I wouldn’t sell an average of 80 panels a year…I’d be out $150,000.

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24

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Dennis,


$150,000 for 80 panels! That is roughly $1800 a panel. You really get $1800 per panel. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers

25

Originally Posted By: rray
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I paid $2,700 for a 100A panel last December 31.

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Home inspections. . . .


One home at a time.


26

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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icon_eek.gif Russ…that electrician seen you coming when he sold you that 100 amp panel!!!



An easy 100 amp panel upgrade starts at $950. From that my gross profit is about $300.

An easy, PVC 100 amp service upgrade starts at $350. From that my gross profit is about $100.

Combined, a 100 amp panel and service that is easy to do in nature would run the client $1300 minimum. This price includes earth and H2O grounding.

A easy 200 amp panel starts at $1200, from which my gross profit is about $300.

A easy 200 amp PVC service upgrade starts at $700, from which my gross profit is about $200.

A easy 200 amp panel and service upgrade combined would run a client $1900. This also includes grounding.

Now add in the difficulty....make the service rigid steel pipe and add $400 to both scenarios.

Let's say there is some conduit attached to the panel. This can increase the panel cost anywhere from $100 to $500 more.

Relocate a panel and now we are talking even more. The highest I ever got for a 100 amp panel and service combined was $1800. The highest I ever got for a 200 amp was $2600.

These are Ohio figures, however, I cannot see the material or labor rate being much higher anywhere else. My labor rate is $69 a hour. Of that $69 a hour, a good 75% goes to pay my wage, the insurance on my truck, the truck payment itself, and the maintenance needed for my vehicle. The rest then is gross profit or about $15 an hour.

I do on the average of 1.5 panels a week. Therefore, I can safely say that I sell about 80 panels a year.

This one went for $1400....it is a 100 amp panel and service upgrade....



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27

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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This one went for $2400








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28

Originally Posted By: rray
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It wasn’t that Dennis. There were extenuating circumstances.


The old Zinsco panel (yeah, yeah, I know) started sparking and smoking early in the morning on Saturday, December 28, most problematic being the breaker for my home office. Paid for the weekend service call. Panel would be ordered on Monday and would be available for installation on Tuesday, December 31, New Year's Eve, a holiday for our electrical union. So I paid for weekend service (overtime), next day delivery for the panel (I guess it had to come from Ohio ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)), and holiday installation (double overtime). Total cost: $2,745. Since I do weekend and holiday inspections, I can never be without my home office for too long.

After learning about Zinsco with that experience (you'll find my Zinsco queries both at NACHI BB and inspectionnews.com), I had three other Zinsco 100A panels (I must be a Zinsco boy) replaced at the timing of the electricians. $690 each.

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Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.

29

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Dennis,


And people wonder why they need an upgrade. Look at all those empty breakers! What a huge difference when you give someone bigger service, huh. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

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David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

30

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Dave,


The panel is the heart of the elctrical system. It provides power to the circuits running through the house. I always tell my customers that changing out the panel will not do away with any existing overloads that may be present in the house. Therefore, changing that circuit that had a 30 amp fuse on it to a new breaker circuit rated at a 15 amp breaker, may very well cause that breaker to trip. My proposal is based on removing and replacing the electrical panel and/or service and does not include any rewiring of the existing circuitry. Therefore they may experience some tripping breakers due to overloads and what once was over rated fusing. If such happens, removing existing overloads is available at an extra cost. When I go back to remove those existing overloads, more breakers are added to add more circuits to the house.

A house as old as the one in my pics had a existing 60 amp fuse panel with 6 circuits. I added an additional 34 circuits. This house was a rewire. In the basement alone, I added about 14 circuits. What I found was that the original 6 circuits was spliced everywhere to run everything. I separated the refrigerator, the dw/disp, the microwave, the lighting circuit in the basement, the washer, the dryer, added a convenience outler circuit to the basement, 2 outside gfci's, rewired the garage circuit as it was run off the kitchen, ran a 60 amp subpanel to the 3rd floor, separated the furnace circuit, added 2 designated circuits for their computer, and tied in the rest to 2 breakers. Up on the third floor I added 3 air conditioning outlets for window a/c and added afci protection for the 3 bedrooms by tying into the existing circuitry and dead ending the power coming from the basement. I also added fan/lt combo's to all bedrooms and installed fan safe boxes throughout.

What was 6 circuits turned into 40 in the basement and 6 on the 3rd floor.
The house was 2340 sq ft and mostly electrical. All 2340 sq ft was originally run on those 6 little 15 amp circuits. Most of my upgrades are based on the load of the house. The panel will not fix overloads. In some cases though, a house may not have overloads and the customer may just want to do away with the fuse panel. I always install a 32 space panel for a 100 amp upgrade. I could put a 20 space in for the same bucks but then it is a good selling feature to give them more than they would ever possibly need. So yes there are a lot of empty spaces in that one panel but I suspect she will be calling me back for in that case, there was a fuse panel with 8 circuits in it and most were fused with 30 amp fuses. As soon as she tries to dry her hair while zapping a burrito in the microwave and making aa pot of coffee...I suspect she will be calling me back to fix the breaker that is tripping. She will get 2 more circuits when she does. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

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31

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Dave,


I was looking at your picture on your post ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif) and aren't you a little young to be here

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32

Originally Posted By: rking
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Dennis,


I do hope that the porch roof the wires appear to be running awfully close to is a slope greater than 4 in 12 (permitting only a three foot clearance) above the roof, if it is not then it certainly does not appear to be ten feet above the roof (but I am not that great at deciphering pictures, more of a hands on type of guy).
And I presume that the service conduit runnning vertically along the wall has at least a three foot clearance to that window!
If not, it is a good thing you cannot inspect the house as per the COE because you have performed work on it ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

--
Muskoka Home Inspections
"Wisdom is the Anticipation of the Consequences"
Steering Committee Member At Large

33

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Dennis,


That's my son. His name is David Valley also, which prevents me from impersonating someone. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

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David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

34

Originally Posted By: jmcginnis
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Russ… that settles it… I am packing my bags and moving to So Cal to do electrical work icon_smile.gif

35

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Robert,


The entire loop has to be upgraded on this specific house. You probably cannot see it but a new insulator was installed for when the utility company changes the loop. Presently the wires are close to the roof but that really isn't my jurisdiction. Also, the 3 feet from a window thing is for the drip loop.

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36

Originally Posted By: rking
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Dennis,


My apologies, I had an easy reference book beside me which states that any electric service equipment must be three feet away from any window whether the window is operable or not.
I just checked the Electrical Code book though and if the service wires are enclosed in a conduit then they are ok at less than three feet, although personally I would most likely point out the service mast and the closeness of a window, if the window were operable, to my client, although I would not it write it as a defect.
I am however pleased that I managed to pick something out of the picture that was not acceptable, I hate PICTURES!

--
Muskoka Home Inspections
"Wisdom is the Anticipation of the Consequences"
Steering Committee Member At Large