New houses in my area have exterior disconnects. So at what point are the “main panels” in the house now a sub panel? The house I did yesterday had an external panel with a 200 amp disconnect breaker and zero breakers in the panel. If the panel in the house is now a sub (it had its own 200 amp disconnect) they sure didn’t separate the neutrals and grounds.
What about a house with an external disconnect that is just a throw switch?
I think it all boils down to where the GEC is…
Thanks for the link and I just read through it. It still doesn’t answer my question though- does the emergency disconnect make the panel a sub panel? What about of instead of the throw switch, they used a 200 amp load center as the exterior disconnect?
Here’re some photos. Never mind the bare conductors touching the enclosure (yikes), or the fact the panel is in a bathroom. I wrote those up.
Did you read through the thread that the link was inserted into?
I missed the hyperlinked thread you posted. Thanks.
Hopefully you called out the poor placement/dressing of the wires in that sub-panel?? You have conductors literally against the deadfront screw holes. That’s a big problem even with proper panel screws! Been there, done that with two panels in a row by the same Electrician. Looks like someone may have already nicked the jacket putting them in and I finished it off taking them out! POP!!! Followed by a healthy does of wet and mushy jeans!!
Too many HI’s seem to get their minds twisted with how a panel is wired and its name - there is no correlation. Where the majority of breakers are found, just call it the “Main Panel” or “Primary Panel” or “Load Center.” It might contain the main disconnect or it might not. It absolutely does not matter if the neutrals and grounds are bonded inside the main panel, just that they are indeed bonded together at one point only (typically where the main disconnect is located) and everywhere else downstream they are isolated, including distribution panels (subpanels).
True. In residential, I keep it super simple: the service disconnect and the main distribution panel. The service disconnect is sometimes located in the main panel, sometimes not. This has served me well for many years. Occasionally, there are exceptions, and a few extra words are required to describe the system.
I think what confuses many is the first disconnect and what is downstream from there. You nailed it.
You’ve hit the nail on the head. When trying to explain and understand these things the proper terminology is important. The service disconnect is located where the main bonding jumper (MBJ) is installed. That could be at the meter in the case of a meter main, at a separate disconnecting means or in the service panel itself.
Since there emergency disconnects required for dwellings it can be complicated because the presence of a disconnect with overcurrent protection next to a meter may not be the service disconnect. That also changes the rules as far where the MBJ is installed, if the neutrals and EGCs are separated, and if there will be 3 or 4 conductors between the equipment.
For the record… for clarity of this thread regarding required Emergency Disconnects… they are required for One and Two Family Residential Structures.
Any other scenario discussed here should be very specific per application (such as Brian’s post with multiple disconnects), as the referenced NEC requirements may not necessarily be applicable in the same manner.
I’m sure everyone appreciates avoiding any confusion while learning about this relatively new requirement we all need to know about (sooner or later).
I was referring to a single family home.
Okay, can you or someone else illustrate this situation? For I could only envision this scenario for a condo, duplex, etc.
Not sure if this answers your question but here’s a 200 amp emergency disconnect for a 200 amp service where the EM disconnect is not the service disconnect. That means that the MBJ is installed in the interior panel and the emergency disconnect is not service equipment so between it and the service panel there are only 3 conductors required. At the service panel the MBJ is installed and the EGC’s and neutrals can land on the same neutral bus.
I see now! Thank you very much!
This emergency disconnect was added to the 2020 NEC for single and two family dwellings so inspectors should start to see it in the field. It can be confusing because you would think that the 200 amp circuit breaker shown in my photo would be the service disconnect but the sticker on the outside is what tells you that it is not the service disconnect it’s only the EM disconnect.
And that sticker is REQUIRED, correct? (If for no other reason than to identify it for Emergency Personnel), and should be reported on by inspectors if not readily legible or missing.
Yes whatever type of system is installed a sticker describing it is required. Here are the sticker requirements. What is shown in the photo complies with 230.85(3).
230.85 Emergency Disconnects.
For one- and two-family dwelling units, all service conductors shall terminate in disconnecting means having a short-circuit current rating equal to or greater than the available fault current, installed in a readily accessible outdoor location. If more than one disconnect is provided, they shall be grouped. Each disconnect shall be one of the following:
(1) Service disconnects marked as follows:
EMERGENCY DISCONNECT,
SERVICE DISCONNECT
(2) Meter disconnects installed per 230.82(3) and marked as follows:
EMERGENCY DISCONNECT,
METER DISCONNECT,
NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT
(3) Other listed disconnect switches or circuit breakers on the supply side of each service disconnect that are suitable for use as service equipment and marked as follows:
EMERGENCY DISCONNECT,
NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT
Markings shall comply with 110.21(B).
You wrote up bare conductors? Those are equipment grounding conductors. What did you write?
There was a piece of Romex with the black and white wires TOUCHING the metal panel enclosure. Not grounds.
And the issue with this is…??
