Flir i7 is this enough resolution?

[jkaylor (Jason Kaylor)]

As a side not I am incorrect about the i7 regarding MRad for Resnet standards. It was in the original Resnet draft, but they removed it.

JJ

[jkaylor (Jason Kaylor)]

John as far as MRad not being important…take Level II and then we can discuss that.

By chance do you find focus to be important?

JJ

[jmckenna1 (John McKenna, CMI)]

@dandersen

John you still floundering with “less is better” syndrome?

No, I always say more is better. Read my post.
RESNET set the minimum standard, go debate with them.

I did not address my post directly at you. I was speaking in general.
You seem to be taking things awfully personal (maybe for just reason).
**
You share your ideas and I share mine. Enjoy.**

I am interested in your repetitive response that I told you you could not do window inspections with a BCAM. I posted a pretty extensive thread about how this window phenomena occurs. I had no clue. We all worked it out together.

Yup, the BCAM came through again….:mrgreen:

Please post the location of my claim to refresh my memory. It is probably something you took out of context which you commonly do.
**
Forget it, I am too tired to go find it.** You can deny it.

Which brings me to another point; in the beginning we were all learning. I attended your first traveling IR show when it came to town. I conferred with William Decker in designing your first course. I allowed you to use my scans in your first websites. Now you want to hold me up as someone that simply ridicules everything you do because I’m something better than I deserve.

I just respond to people’s post.

Well, I will get personal here.
In the beginning you were like everybody else starting out. However, you have not advanced yourself other than to become the cheapest training available to home inspectors and offer the cheapest camera and promote the unnecessary need for quality of equipment.
**
Nope, I always say MORE IS BETTER. Read my post.**

You took one building science course from Flir. You’re not certified in anything, but you’re out there “certifying” camera owners?

I am a Certified FLIR-ITC Building Science Thermographer
according to the paper they gave me and number issued
on it. I paid $1800 for it, I hope it’s not fake…:mrgreen:

I am so sick and tired of listening to you downplaying level I through level III trainers because they allegedly don’t know building inspection (and you do).

That is what the Level III and Level II guys told me.
Take two asprin.

You do nothing to promote people to learn more (and teach others) and advance this industry. Yes, I will consent that there are a lot of expert thermographers out there that cannot utilize thermal imaging under every circumstance.

**I just teach hundreds of **inspectors how to start their
IR business. They do the rest. Many say my course
was the best class they ever took in their whole life and I
help them save hundreds of dollars on a camera. What
are you doing my friend?

Unlike you, they all get together and “work-it-out”. You just sit around and condemn them for doing it. Though you may not “teach it”, Courses like yours lead students to think that once they have bought a camera and attended an introductory training session that they can go out and use your camera on every application there is.

Wrong… I always teach that entry level cameras have
limitations. Try to stick with the facts.

This discussion was made long ago and it is still my opinion that no one should point a camera at something they don’t fully understand.

That is what I teach at every class.

Next week I am attending a course at Firestone concerning flat roof applications and their industry improvements. I will continue to learn something new every day. That’s the only reason I hang out here! I am not complacent and settle for minimum standards.

**I encourage others to learn more, take classes and mentor
with other IR inspectors at every class.
**

I try to introduce new concepts for enlightenment, and for my efforts I spend most of my time responding to crap like this.
**
You share your ideas, and I share mine.**

I’m not talking about your customers, I’m talking about your students customers.

If someone takes my class or Level I, they can still mess up.
I warn people about this at every class.

As far as buying into the process and upgrading in the future, Jason made an excellent reference when pointing out the current equipment costs. I bought a $5000 BCAM as my first camera (like you), $7000 on my first 320x240, and $9000 on my most recent camera. I don’t buy on the “bleeding edge” (actually I never did because I bought my first BCAM as a discontinued model). I sat on the sidelines and watched “the likes of you” and others that have long since left this board.

I have not left the board. What are you talking about?
Some have extra cash, and some do not.

This is what I recommend to everyone here. Don’t buy crap equipment at a high initial cost, wait for the price to come down and upgrade to a better camera that you will need and use for a longer time to come.

What is the minimum camera you recommend.?
Do you agree with RESNET?

That time is “NOW”. I didn’t have these options back when. As Jason pointed out, these cameras were extremely expensive before. We were on the bleeding edge.
**
The economy is not what it was several years ago.
Everyones needs vary my friend.**

I’m not trying to entice anyone to spend more than they need to. I’m trying to entice them to buy today what they’re going to need tomorrow and not try to blow smoke up their *** to get them to take one of my courses and get a camera that they’re going to have to try to unload within the next year as they learn what the camera is actually all about.

I am still using my 120x120 camera with no regrets.
Some do it like me, and some do it like you. It’s all good.

If you were a customer, which one would you pay the most for?

I’m not saying it can’t be done. But there’s no reason to drive a model T. when you can now buy a Corvette at 50% off last year’s price.

**You are correct. It can be done with an entry level camera.
If you can afford more, then by all means buy more.
**

RESNET intends for use with a blower door! Jason pointed this out.
And “like yourself” you are not using an entry-level camera (just a low res camera). My recollection is that you have a Flir BCAM. That is not a level entry camera under today’s standards.

**RESNET IR energy audits deal with more than a blower door.
That is just part of it. You know that my boy.

Any camera that is 120x120 is the minimum entry level.
You can call it anything you want, but you should go no lower.**

I’m not changing my mind, I’m just realizing how much I have actually missed during the time I owned a lower Res camera. If you recall, I posted pictures of a coffee cup on my desk with a BCAM and a BX320 when I first upgraded. There was definitely things in the scan that could not be pulled out with the BCAM. Thus, my opinion that you do miss things with lower end cameras.

And there are cameras that are better than yours. I just
happen to agree with the starting point and it will work
for home inspectors. More is always better.

Unlike some people, I back up what I post here. (Now don’t get all personal and think I’m pointing a finger at you). I lead by example, how about you (now I’m pointing)? Show us your stuff!

You can go to my inspector website and see a sample report
if you like. What else do you want to see? I am here to
for you. What’s the problem?

Even when I post side-by-side photographs to make the point, you continue to “mock” me.
**
You hand it out and I hand it back. You’ll get over it.**

So the answer to your initial statement:

Look in the mirror to see who’s doing the “mocking”. You’re simply just one of those people that try to tear people down that outshine your “smoke and mirrors”.

**I defend the little guy. I like to pop arrogant farts who
talk down to people who tell others they cannot do it
anyway but their way, when the facts say otherwise.
Facts please.
**
In case you are in denial and haven’t realized it, you are the laughingstock of this industry. You are world renown for your “less is better” concepts!

**I get snowed under with emails from people who tell me
they thought my course was outstanding and how happy
they were that they saved so much on a new IR camera.
I have almost never got a complaint, except from some
old birds like you. But I understand that.

You ask me in the beginning if you could help teach my
class some of the time. Your still pissed because I said no.**

There is nothing wrong with introducing people to this industry at an entry level, but quit trying to pull the rest of this industry down to your level of perspective.
**
I always say, more is better. Read my post.**

Are you going to “mock” every one of your students that surpasses your “standard” because they simply want to know more?

**
I hope they all do better than me. That is my goal.**

When they buy a better camera than you own, are they then the black sheep of your heard?

**I help them buy better cameras at every class. I love
helping them find better cameras. It gives me a good
feeling to see them succeed.
**

“That is all I have to say about that…”

This is my farewell speech to the NACHI message board. Don’t waste your breath responding John because I won’t interact any further (here or elsewhere).

OK… hate to see you go.

Later

Hope this helps.

I learned that from Will Decker. He helped write the INFRARED CERTIFIED course
and is an excellent teacher.

[jmckenna1 (John McKenna, CMI)]

@jkaylor

John as far as MRad not being important…take Level II and then we can discuss that.

By chance do you find focus to be important?

JJ

FLIR says the i7 meets the RESNET standard.

Write down all the reasons they are wrong and I will get their
techie to respond. I am open to hear all that you have to say.
I have been in touch with them already so let’s do it.

Since you have never done a home inspection, you might be
limited in what you know. I will be patient.

Does it help to know what your talking about?

[jkaylor (Jason Kaylor)]

@jmckenna1

FLIR says the i7 meets the RESNET standard.

Write down all the reasons they are wrong and I will get their
techie to respond. I am open to hear all that you have to say.
I have been in touch with them already so let’s do it.

Since you have never done a home inspection, you might be
limited in what you know. I will be patient.

Does it help to know what your talking about?

I think you skipped a post there John, see post #41.

My original post was only to inform people of what Resnet had proposed in their original draft standard. It was not intended to be a bash on FLIR and definitely not Resnet or the people that drafted the standard. If any manufacturer’s camera were to miss a standard, I would point it out. I addressed my error in the matter concerning the released Resnet thermography standard in regards to the MRad specification and the i7.

You didn’t answer my question…do you feel focus is important? Camera focus, not focus on what people are saying…you usually seem to miss David’s points so we will not worry about that.

JJ

[cduphily (Chris Duphily, Level II Infrared Thermographer #8355)]

@wwarner

This has to be the only place on the world wide web where mediocrity is encouraged, taught, and accepted regarding thermal imaging equipment and training in residential and commercial applications… all under the guise of saving inspectors money. :roll:

caveat emptor…

Well said!!!

[jmckenna1 (John McKenna, CMI)]

@jkaylor

You didn’t answer my question…do you feel focus is important? Camera focus, not focus on what people are saying…you usually seem to miss David’s points so we will not worry about that.

JJ

What points did I miss regarding David?

Now on to the subject of focus…

What does the RESNET standard say about the i7 and it’s focus?
What defect will a home inspector miss with the i7 type of focus?
Provide proof.

Please be specific and I will address your concerns.

[jmckenna1 (John McKenna, CMI)]

Originally Posted by wwarner http://nachi.cachefly.net/forum/images/2006/buttons/viewpost.gif
*This has to be the only place on the world wide web where mediocrity is encouraged, taught, and accepted regarding thermal imaging equipment and training in residential and commercial applications… all under the guise of saving inspectors money.

http://www.nachi.org/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

caveat emptor…

If RESNET sets a minimum standard, are they encouraging mediocrity?
What minimum standard would you set?

Is it wrong to say MORE is better, but the minimum standard camera will
work, for a home inspection, if you are on a budget?

Please do not avoid these simple questions. We need answers from those
with superior wisdom, if you posses it.
*

[jkaylor (Jason Kaylor)]

@jmckenna1

What points did I miss regarding David?

Now on to the subject of focus…

What does the RESNET standard say about the i7 and it’s focus?
What defect will a home inspector miss with the i7 type of focus?
Provide proof.

Please be specific and I will address your concerns.

I have never taken your class, you should comp me one so I can give it a review. You never know it might be good. You can ask others that have called me from here. I always tell them the same thing, if you plan on doing strictly HIs with IR then take John’s course. If you plan on doing HIs and other services then take John’s course then Level I, then specialty IR training.

I know how focus is addressed in all levels of IR training, I was wondering how much importance you put on to it.

JJ

[gbell (Greg Bell, Sr CMI)]

I will share my opinion here. I bought a low end camera and took the level 1 training. After using the camera in the field I felt that it wasn’t accurate enough for me to use on a home inspection. I felt that using a low end camera really increased my liability. For that reason I sold my camera and no longer offer IR services with a home inspection. I could not justify spending the money needed for the level of camera needed that would reduce my liability.

[rthoroman (Ray Thoroman)]

Hey Guys,

Thanks again for all the opinions here. I do not wish anyone to get bent out of shape or have their feelings squashed.

Keep in mind, I know a lot of you guys. A few joined iNACHI before me, many after. If you would have had this conversation and discussion 5 or 10 years ago, people would’ve thought you were crazy. I understand that IR is fairly new for home inspector type applications. I think we all get that the seasoned thermal imagers and trainers are still fairly new to the industry as well. I know that this game is changing and developing more every day.

I not going to knock John just because he’s fairly new to the industry and offers a class or IR. Same as I’m not going to get upset or take it personal because someone thinks just because I’m interested in a low end camera that I’m a low balling piece of shat.

With that said, wish everyone could be civil, get along, and be able to express there opinions w/ out a bunch of bs. Seems that always happens round here huh? It sucks cause a lot of good inspectors don’t post cause of this.

So, what I’m doing is seeing what makes sense for my business. Also seeing what equipment to get. I know some of you offer and find many uses for your camera. My business model may not be the same as yours.

Bottom line, what could I offer CONFIDENTLY with the i7 Flir? Energy audits? Moisture scans? Electrical scans? Roof scans? Or simply is this camera a POS and good for nothing?

Do I need to be RESNET certified and Level I? What service could I offer if I just took Johns class?

Thx again.

[rthoroman (Ray Thoroman)]

@gbell

I will share my opinion here. I bought a low end camera and took the level 1 training. After using the camera in the field I felt that it wasn’t accurate enough for me to use on a home inspection. I felt that using a low end camera really increased my liability. For that reason I sold my camera and no longer offer IR services with a home inspection. I could not justify spending the money needed for the level of camera needed that would reduce my liability.

Which camera was it Greg? So you do NOT offer Thermal Imaging services anymore?

[jmckenna1 (John McKenna, CMI)]

@jkaylor

I have never taken your class, you should comp me one so I can give it a review. You never know it might be good. You can ask others that have called me from here. I always tell them the same thing, if you plan on doing strictly HIs with IR then take John’s course. If you plan on doing HIs and other services then take John’s course then Level I, then specialty IR training.

I know how focus is addressed in all levels of IR training, I was wondering how much importance you put on to it.

JJ

I also encourage all my students to take more training for
services beyond a normal home inspection. We agree.

[jmckenna1 (John McKenna, CMI)]

@rthoroman

Hey Guys,

Thanks again for all the opinions here. I do not wish anyone to get bent out of shape or have their feelings squashed.

Keep in mind, I know a lot of you guys. A few joined iNACHI before me, many after. If you would have had this conversation and discussion 5 or 10 years ago, people would’ve thought you were crazy. I understand that IR is fairly new for home inspector type applications. I think we all get that the seasoned thermal imagers and trainers are still fairly new to the industry as well. I know that this game is changing and developing more every day.

I not going to knock John just because he’s fairly new to the industry and offers a class or IR. Same as I’m not going to get upset or take it personal because someone thinks just because I’m interested in a low end camera that I’m a low balling piece of shat.

With that said, wish everyone could be civil, get along, and be able to express there opinions w/ out a bunch of bs. Seems that always happens round here huh? It sucks cause a lot of good inspectors don’t post cause of this.

So, what I’m doing is seeing what makes sense for my business. Also seeing what equipment to get. I know some of you offer and find many uses for your camera. My business model may not be the same as yours.

Bottom line, what could I offer CONFIDENTLY with the i7 Flir? Energy audits? Moisture scans? Electrical scans? Roof scans? Or simply is this camera a POS and good for nothing?

Do I need to be RESNET certified and Level I? What service could I offer if I just took Johns class?

Thx again.

Any camera that meets RESNET minimum standard will allow you
to do an energy audit according to THEIR opinion (John Snell
wrote the standard).

The RESNET standard also happens to be a threshold that works
for home inspections. Thousands of inspectors use 120x120
resolution cameras all the time.

Is MORE better? The answer is always YES.

If you have a strong background in construction, then your
learning curve will be much shorter in IR. If you are shallow,
then you can get into trouble.

Your camera is HIGHLY dependent on the environment you
are working in. You need to hear examples and teachings of
false positives, low delta T issues, and similar anomalies
that have more than one possible diagnosis (and the protocols
on how to isolate and verify the issue under the surface).

If you get into a low delta T environment, a more expensive
camera will see more issues than the low end camera. So
you have to be careful.

I have also seen inspectors with a low end camera find more
defects than someone with a very expensive camera. Why?
They knew where and how to look for the defects. So it’s
not just the camera that makes the thermographer.

I have seen inspectors who are filled with BOOK knowledge,
and have never built a house, have more problems when
looking through an IR camera. They lack the real world ability
to see with the “third eye” of their understanding. Even
though they learned all the correct answers to pass an
inspector exam, they lack the real world depth to diagnose
the issues they are looking at. Defects and side affects
can take on a lot of manifestations that you will never
read about in any books.

I have seen inspectors who have been in business for more
than 10 years back away from IR after they got their camera.
They never felt secure in what they were trying to do.

Training is a MUST. I recommend that you do not go out
and report until you have lots of field experience also.

Our course and Level I cannot fill-in the gaps to a person
who lacks electrical knowledge. (or… gaps in HVAC, plumbing,
roof systems, structure, EFIS, etc…). In fact, a good IR class
will cause an inspector to realize where they are weak.

Unless you take a building IR class your not going to hear
examples of all the various issues you run into while doing
IR construction scans. If you go into services beyond a
home inspection, you will need more training for sure. We
teach these principles in every class.

[tleahy (Tom Leahy)]

Even with all the bickering, this thread has been very educational. If I want to learn and based on what I can afford at this time, I think Johns class would be very beneficial to me. I do understand that I would start with this camera to help me in my inspections in seeing things better than just my eyes. This is a positive. As I get better and able to advertise the use of the camera within a home inspection it will only help separate me from others who have no camera and help increase business. Then in a couple of years when I have learned more than the camera will let me do I will upgrade to the T1000 that everybody will be upgrading to anyway.

I can see Davids point where people would take advantage of customers offering more than the equipment can do. You will find these people in every profession. I’m sure you have people who have $10,000 cameras and don’t have a clue how to use them correctly and still taking advantage of consumers.

I feel if I wait till I can afford the expensive camera, that will just put me that much farther behind in my goal to learn IR.

So what would you think based on my scenerio?? Crazy?

[jmckenna1 (John McKenna, CMI)]

@tleahy

Even with all the bickering, this thread has been very educational. If I want to learn and based on what I can afford at this time, I think Johns class would be very beneficial to me. I do understand that I would start with this camera to help me in my inspections in seeing things better than just my eyes. This is a positive. As I get better and able to advertise the use of the camera within a home inspection it will only help separate me from others who have no camera and help increase business. Then in a couple of years when I have learned more than the camera will let me do I will upgrade to the T1000 that everybody will be upgrading to anyway.

I can see Davids point where people would take advantage of customers offering more than the equipment can do. You will find these people in every profession. I’m sure you have people who have $10,000 cameras and don’t have a clue how to use them correctly and still taking advantage of consumers.

I feel if I wait till I can afford the expensive camera, that will just put me that much farther behind in my goal to learn IR.

So what would you think based on my scenerio?? Crazy?

95% of all my students, and most on this forum, got started
with your same wisdom. Go for it.

[ldapkus (Linas Dapkus, CMI)]

Who needs training or a expensive thermal imager when you can rent a camera and do it yourself??

[rthoroman (Ray Thoroman)]

Ok. Do not feel good about the Flir i7. Research and lack of positive comments I think it’s not the way to go.

Has anyone out there used the i7 or currently own one? If so, what applications or services do you offer with it?

Guys what’s the minium camera that I’ll be happy with and offer a service that I can be proud of? Again, I’d like to offer energy audits, moisture scans, electrical, plumbing, roof, and HVAC scans.

Do I need a blower door?

What credentials do I need per each service?

What’s the most popular service you offer?

I use HG 3.0. Is there a thermal imaging template for HG? Or what do you recommend?

Thx,
Ray

[jmckenna1 (John McKenna, CMI)]

@rthoroman

Guys what’s the minium camera that I’ll be happy with and offer a service that I can be proud of? Again, I’d like to offer energy audits, moisture scans, electrical, plumbing, roof, and HVAC scans.

**If your going to do flat roof scans and you want guaranteed
happiness for everything else, then buy an IR camera with
320x240 resolution.

Happiness vs the pain of cost requires you to do more
research. Your not ready to buy IMHO. You need to find
your priorities and what price you can pay.

Better yet, you would do better taking an IR class first
and that way you will have a much better understanding
of what you about to buy. Right now you just guessing
and you don’t know who’s voice to trust.
**
Do I need a blower door?

If you want to perform RESNET or BPI compliant energy
audits, then the answer is YES.

What credentials do I need per each service?

**You will need to be RESNET or BPI certified to perform their
mandated energy audits.

Note: For general home inspection purposes their is no
state license required to use an IR camera. The word
certification means an educational provider has certified
that you passed their course. Certification and licensing
do not mean the same thing.

Flat roofs are a different animal and require more camera
and training (I recommend mentoring as well).**

What’s the most popular service you offer?

**Whatever you promote the most. That’s it.

Flat roofs are the big dollar item if you can do it.**

I use HG 3.0. Is there a thermal imaging template for HG? Or what do you recommend?

**Most inspectors put their IR photos into their same report
software that they are using now for home inspections.
**

Thx,
Ray

Hope this helps.

[rthoroman (Ray Thoroman)]

Thx for the info John. Now I feel I’m making some progress!

So if I do not want to offer roof scans BUT everything else I mentioned, what would be the best camera you’d recommend? I can do withOUT offering roof scans if it means a less expensive or less resolution camera.

Do you recommend offering energy aduits without BPI or RESNET Certifications? If not, could I get certified in one or another? Which is better?

Would you recommend offering energy audits after completing your course only?

What blower door do you recommend?

John, I’d like to keep start up costs as least as possible BUT that does not mean I’m looking to waste my money on equipment or training that is junk or does not do the job properly.

Thx again.