All these questions.
But…no meaningful answers.
Hmmmmmmm.
Kinda makes you wonder, doesn’t it?
Bob, if you visually could see the defect, “bubbled insulator”, (I’m guessing your referring to an overheated conductor) then whats the point of using IR. Just take a digital picture and report it.
I also agree with Ken, the image is poor and out of focus. We also need more info. Did you determine T-Refl and the Emissivity of the object.
Not picking on you but it’s easy to take picture’s of a melted conductor, what’s difficult is to find it before it melts.
Bumbling Bob, You seem to be stuck on your perception that I (we) are telling you to throw the thing away because it is worthless.
I have said many times, it is for what it was designed for, and Home Inspection is NOT what it was designed for.
A drone can pick people off the ground, but were not designed for intercontinental flight!
Step #1 in your training: to know how the camera works and what it can and can not do.
You have figured out how to see things relatively warmer than one another. But you have yet to figure out that the camera is not a thermometer, nor is it a moisture meter.
As for how hot is too hot, my $30k camera makes things 0.5 degrees Delta-T look like a forest fire sometimes. Does this make it a better (or required camera) for all applications? No. Sometimes I just use my 25 year old pyrometer! You don’t need a 40 Ton Excavator to dig a post hole.
Pay attention and read slowly…
That camera has a definite purpose in home inspection. It beats the hell out of your flashlight! But if you raise your clients expectations because you are using it, your significantly raising your liability into the “Negligence” level.
Anyone else listening in…
Why would you get a Thermal Camera to do home inspections?
If you don’t know the answer to this, you need to pinch yourself and wake up.
What are you trying to accomplish getting one of these things?
This determines which camera you need.
What is your return on investment?
1# Free to get a HI job does not justify thinking about this any further.
2# Do more than a visual inspection for the client and offer an additional paid service. (This is illegal buy the way!)
3# Get jobs 10x more profitable than a home inspection.
Many Thermographers will not start their truck for less than $1,500 - $2,000.
Doesn’t mean you give up Home Inspecting. It takes time to get these clients. Especially when there are a bunch of Homies with TI Cameras that think they can pull it off.
David you seem to lack the comprehension that I am not trying to be a thermographer.
Calling me Bumbling Bob is supposed to make some kind of point or you are just simply angry that I am having fun with a toy that helps me back up a few visual findings.
Please stop being so furious and worrying I am going to take away your high paying IR aux service jobs .
Since you are so perfect you also know that every finding needs to be backed up either visually or with another method such as a moisture meter and the blurry picture as you call it still shows a large amount of heat being dissipated which I backed up with my IR thermometer and visually.
Went in an attic the other day and found a cold spot in the far side of the attic which showed the hard board had deteriorated at that location so made the effort to get to that spot and visually observed a opening which had small trim board covering it from the exterior to cover up the water logged edge of a hardboard as the entire home was covered with stucco textured hardboard and rough trim English tudor ]it had the potential to be overlooked .
Friday I did a loft warehouse conversion condo and noticed a large amount of heat at a unused dryer vent no flex attached ] and it turned out there was a exhaust booster on the entire tier sucking out heat from the unit being examined.
I am not using it as Thermographer but am doing initial scans to look for the obvious that has potential to be missed under normal SOP Inspection and not marketing it or using it as a conclusive tool in my findings.
Sorry if the anger here keeps guys from seeing .Maybe use a good camera and take a selfie …
I feel so sorry for new guys that come here only to get berated instead of helped.
John never answered my question by the way.
I feel so sorry for new guys that come here only to get berated instead of helped.
David,
Quit berating the old guy and go after the new guys please.
By chance, Is Bob a Democrat?
I seem to see a similarity with what crap I see on TV all of time these days.
Yeah Bob, you scare me to death!
I promoted you to Bumbling Bob because you are obviously Bumbling your way through this one. You used to have such good advice on digital cameras etc. Only the best for Bob! What happened?
You IR guys are certainly missing the point. A Flirone is indeed an entry level camera that holds a great deal of value for the average home inspector. If it helps you qualify what your experience suggests is a potential problem why would you then dismiss the entire validity of these findings? I routinely now have my iPhone with FLIR One attached at every inspection. If I see a potential problem I document it and refer the “anomaly” on to the appropriate licensed individual(s) for further evaluation. So what’s the issue…?
Your lack of a legitimate argument is surely revealed by your suggestion that a persons political affiliation has anything to do with their ability to discern fact from fiction. I might suggest in your case, the same can be said of your staunch and inflexible views. If I’m reading this correctly your club has an initiation cost that determines your standing. Frankly I’m not buying it…
FLIR ONE
It is the 50% of the defects you cannot see that makes it a poor choice for home inspectors and if the client thinks your thermal imaging was done with a quality camera, then they were deceived.
Yes… the cheapest IR camera made can see the obvious anomalies. It is all the things the cheapo camera cannot see that makes it a liability. Many defects are very subtle and require at least a FLIR e6 to see them. (even then it can be hard).
I am not bashing you. Just sayin.
Below are some images that demonstrate how, in some environments, a whole set of steps can disappear and your camera cannot see it. How much more can a small moisture spot disappear in some cases (one example).
We as inspectors, need a dependable IR camera that will work at a level that is reliable in finding hard to see defects. I am promoting an idea based on 9 years of thermography and has been confirmed by several schools that teach infrared.
You still have not answered my question?
Bob,
I took a building science and thermal imaging certification course in 2007, with FLIR-ITC, that was taught by Scott Wood (he was Level II at the time). Many thermography schools allow Level II people to teach IR classes as long as they are not teaching one of the Level I, II, III courses.
Scott Wood could not teach the “Level” courses at the time because he was not a Level III person yet (even though he was probably the smartest building science guy they had). Right after I took his course, Scott got his Level III certification and they changed the name of his course and called it Level I building science, or something like that. Scott told me the content of the class I took with him was about the same as a Level I course, but for the reasons stated above, it could not be called Level I at the time (until Scott got his Level III).
I am in the process of getting my Level II certification. I will let you know shortly when that is done. The content of my IR class will not change and our class has been evaluated by a Level III teacher and he found it met his approval. I can give you the contact info if you would like to call him.
I was in construction and a contractor for over 25 years and a Texas home inspector for 15 years. There are many who are smarter than me, no doubt.
I really don’t need Level II but I thought I would do it anyway (not trying to bash you Level II guys). You would be amazed if I told you the thermal imaging teachers who have told me that home inspectors don’t really need Level II for a home inspection. I will not share their names because everyone would know them. If you go beyond a home inspection, then you will need Level II and even Level III in some cases.
Hundreds of home inspectors are now operating their thermal imaging business after taking my class and it appears they are still going strong. Some have failed to stay in business, but that is common in this industry.
The questions I ask you were reasonable. If you do not want to answer them that is fine with me. I am not trying to bash you.
John I recall several years ago correct ? ] you were teaching this coarse and guys like Dave were making fun of the fact you were not a level anything at that time plus may have thought the Flukes you were selling ooopps getting deals on ] were sub standard so find your questioning me just a little ironic.
By the way I have professional training for gaffing and ladder safety in my background and have decided to interrogate anyone that mentions they inspected a roof without it .
I refuse to answer your questions because the very fact you are trying to do to me what all the actual certified IR guys did you should have taught you something .
The only difference is you teach a course and I do not, which is a good course from what I am told and believe Will Decker created it for you whom is the same guy I took 3-4 IR courses from …oh surprise.
I know nothing of anything about IR and who cares as my report is based on other evidence .
Here is my sub panel section report lingo…• I recommend a Licensed Electrician examine and evaluate .
• Service feeder conductor to this panel has melted conductor covering indicating is
running hot.
• 70 amp double pole breaker conductor has the same issue and is used to feed the
electric furnace.
• Observed double tap wiring, which is not allowed
That is all I need John and not depending on IR for anything…period.10 years no IR and seem to being doing fine.
I simply post my experiance with a device and all with vested interests …$$$$…jump my bones .Go figure.
Sure you can throw in a few perverts like ChuckE or Linass but they are just simply my regular stalkers and part of my entourage.
No, I don’t think you’re getting the point.
It’s not about what you can see with the thing it’s about what you can’t see.
It’s about the inability to properly focus as mentioned in this thread. If you can’t focus the scan is worthless.
The point is: every camera has a purpose. Is your job as an unqualified camera owner to know what equipment is required for what purpose.
That’s it. If you can see something, fine. But some things are hot (like AFCIs in GFCIs). If your camera is incapable of the appropriate adjustments, spot size ratio, sensitivity etc. just because it looks hot does not mean it’s too hot and your raising the flag about an issue that is an issue to you, but it is not an issue.
This also has been discussed. You obviously don’t understand because you are not trained to understand. So matter what we say, if you can’t comprehend what we’re talking about because you don’t speak thermography, you will never get it.
Just like Democrat Bob. He gets a notion, considers it fact, then just gets emotional about it if you don’t agree.
Stage I: tear down the messenger.
Stage II: make up ship that has nothing to do with it using incorrect information.
Stage III: get emotional and belittle the whole thing. Like taking your toys and going home…
I don’t have a legitimate argument? You’re freaking Democrat too!
Nothing about your political affiliation, you just hang out with an entire group of people just like you and Bob. because I poke fun at you my argument is illegitimate, right?
Get a life. I call it as I see it and can care less about what you think. I engage a conversation so maybe somebody out there will see-through your smoke and mirrors. I have no dog in this fight. I could care less what you do.
With that, it’s time for me to leave for my $6,000/2hr roof scan…
FLUKE makes some good cameras, as does FLIR and TESTO.
I don’t sell cameras period. Whoops.
I created half of the IR class and Will Decker did half. He did not do it for me. We did it together.
When you say you know nothing about IR, you seem to give out a lot of advise. Read David’s post slowly. It is what you cannot see that exposes you to liability. This is the issue.
Yep, the initiation cost is not to be a freaking moron.
You are required to be able to identify "stupid ", and have the desire to change it.
What is your problem?
Some of us are going on our second decade. Some like Peter Russell who I took building science with just now got level II and John McKenna is working on it. We all go at it at a different pace. You go out and buy a toy and chastise us because of your inferiority complex?
Nobody told you to come here with your toy and try to convince us of how impressed you are with it. I can only imagine how impressed you would be if you knew what you don’t know.
It’s not like you need some secret decoder ring to become part of the club, you just have to have the desire to learn and invest what’s necessary in yourself.
You can start by quit being stupid.
Please tell us how you get a Level II without first completing a Level I.
You and the club members are convinced that an IR designation is all that is required to justify your arguments. McKenna honestly admits that he has only as of recent aquired this level 2 designation but has been teaching the class for years without any credentials. Based on that I can safely say that common sense is a better part of the argument when applied to the home inspection field. There are a number of nachi inspectors that like myself see the value in basic IR but are not representing themselves as graduates of any particular association. If that works for you so be it. You again imply that my political affiliation has something to do with this reasoning. Quackery.
I’ve been a registered republican since the early nineties. You wanna try something that sticks and doesn’t make you appear foolish…
I’m betting your still an asshole even if your public persona suggests otherwise.
Who said I was not completing Level I ?