Originally Posted By: thejnicki
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Originally Posted By: jpope
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Current carrying conductors are required to be individually terminated.
–
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: thejnicki
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Thanks Jeff, by the way this was a Zinsco panel, how would you inform them of the risks that these types of panels pose, (stablocks)?
Originally Posted By: jpope
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| Quote: |
| The home is currently equipped with a (FPE/Zinsco). (FPE/Zinsco)
load centers are considered problematic by industry professionals due to their high failure rate. Failure of any component with in the electrical system can result in fire and/or electrocution. |
In most cases this is followed by a replacement recommendation. Ocassionally, I'll recommend "further evaluation by a state licensed electrical contractor to determine the safety, integrity and performance of the service equipment."
--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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Tim,
Basically you simply state that under the current guidelines of the NEC the Neutral "grounded" conductor must be terminated within the panel by itself and not grouped with additional conductors under one terminal. It may also not be terminated with any grounding conductors.
A bit redundant but easy for them to understand.
--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: fbartlo
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ground and neutrals should be isolated in main panels?
I see grounds and neutrals on the same bus bar in more old panels than not.
Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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| Quote: |
| Basically you simply state that under the current guidelines of the NEC the Neutral "grounded" conductor must be terminated within the panel by itself and not grouped with additional conductors under one terminal. It may also not be terminated with any grounding conductors. |
Not sure it can get any more basic than that....
You are confusing a Main panel with a Sub Panel....in a Main panel the grounds and neutrals CAN be on the same termination bar.....it is only in Sub-Panels that the neutral MUSt float and have all neutral conductors terminated on a totally differfent termination bar....This has nothing to do with the quote above......the one posted above was when you see a panel that has "white" neutral wires in a termination hole with say a bare ground or another neutral.....
The statement was that neutrals should be (1) per terminal screw on the termination bar....only grounds may have multiples under one terminal in the termination bar IF the panel allows it....
Ok...I used terminal bar as to not confuse with buss bar which is more dealing with the actual phases or " ungrounded " conductors.
Please do not mix the two NEC rules......each has their own place.
--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: thejnicki
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Paul,
Even in a main panel the neutral terminations have to be individualy terminetd correct?
Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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| Quote: |
| Paul,
Even in a main panel the neutral terminations have to be individualy terminetd correct? |
We are speaking in the previous about grounds and neutrals terminated on the same grounding bar....in a main panel you would take the neutral to its proper termial lug ( usually in the middle between the two (2) ungrounded terminal lugs......
When you install the GREEN bonding screw it ties the neutral and ground together and then bonde to the enclosure....this is done in a main panel.....just remember in a sub-panel the neutral and ground are kept seperate....and have their own termination bar for each and NO GREEN ground screw ( toss that puppy on sub-panels ) so the neutral terminal bar floats and is not bonded to the enclosure.
Hope this explains it.
--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: jpope
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| thejnicki wrote: |
| Even in a main panel the neutral terminations have to be individualy terminetd correct? |
Current carrying conductors require individual terminations - even in the service equipment.
--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: bbadger
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| fbartlo wrote: |
| OK, but how do you guys explain in plain English why ground and neutrals should be isolated in main panels? |
Plain English?
It's an NEC violation, why do they need to know the reason behind the rule?
--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: fbartlo
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might not need to know the reason, but I’d certainly like to know why the ground and neutral wires need to be isolated in a subpanel that is close to the main. I would figure it is to keep the subpanel enclosure out of the current loop under normal circumstances.
I've never been one to accept "because that's the way it is." Just the way I'm built.
Originally Posted By: Jay Moge
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i was told by a local sparky that when it all comes down, it realy won’t make a difference if there together in a sub. panel or not, but the “theory” is that by seperating the 2 you give a “dead short” 2 paths to get to ground, and if one should fail, then you have a backup. if the outlet ground breaks, and then a short, it should go to ground via the neutral and vise versa. sound like the best reason i’ve gotten so far. i’ll stick with that to tell the client, it’s not a lie, and will satisfy them.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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In simple terms, the reason you don’t reground the neutral is voltage drop (actually voltage rise in the grounded conductor). If you measure the voltage on a properly isolated neutral to the equipment ground you will see the circuit voltage drop is evenly divided between hot and neutral. The hot is lower, the neutral is higher. If you had that “regrounded” you would also see that voltage rise on the case of the tool you were using, referenced to the concrete floor.
Put a bad connection in there and that could be up to 120v.
Originally Posted By: thejnicki
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We lay it out for them to play it out…
Originally Posted By: ddivito
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| jpope wrote: | ||
Current carrying conductors require individual terminations - even in the service equipment. |
What is the reference for this?
Originally Posted By: jpope
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| ddivito wrote: |
| What is the reference for this? |
There is no reference (that I'm aware of) for the "current carrying conductors and individual termination" because there are many cases where this is allowed (such as in parallel conductors) if the terminal is identified for connection of more than one conductor.
However, I can give you this. . .
| Quote: |
| 408.21 Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor. |
Again, there is an exception to this provision. In general, as Home Inspectors, we should consider that "current carrying conductors should terminate individually," and defer it if we see otherwise.
--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: fbartlo
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| Quote: |
| the reason you don't reground the neutral is voltage drop (actually voltage rise in the grounded conductor). |
I had a gut feeling something like that would be the case, Greg, seeing as how such an arrangement creates a loop.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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The NEC lumps this all into “objectionable currents on grounding conductors”, something to be avoided.