HB 315

Originally Posted By: jburkeson
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HB 315 activity is dominating the home inspection profession here in Florida. As a Florida home inspector please provide the following information on your position in regards to this licensing bill.



Joseph Burkeson, RPI (Hooperette)


?Anyone who has proclaimed violence his method inexorably must choose lying as his principle.?
~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Originally Posted By: rzimmerman
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WAIT…Wrong Vote. I wanted NO icon_confused.gif Dam Mouse


Anyway I did email my rep and about 30 others. Untill my hand cramped. Got all the A's, B's, C's, Z's, Q's and W's done. Ok I jumped around toward the end

I'll do more on Thurs.


--
Rob Z.
www.RZinspections.com

Originally Posted By: dedwards
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Concentrate on the members of the committees that are going to look at the thing first. If it is killed in committee it will never make it to the floor for a vote. Several of the members are on more than one of the committees that are going to see the bill first. They should also know that there is an alternative to licensing. Go to www. faphi.com and see the position statement.[/url]


Originally Posted By: jburkeson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Deleted… icon_biggrin.gif



Joseph Burkeson, RPI (Hooperette)


?Anyone who has proclaimed violence his method inexorably must choose lying as his principle.?
~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Originally Posted By: rzimmerman
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



so far one reply.


This from the Honorable Aaron P. Bean;



Robert, thank you for your message and for getting involved. I will
check out 315. aaron


--
Rob Z.
www.RZinspections.com

Originally Posted By: gbell
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I would like to share my thoughts with you on licensing in Florida. These are just my own observations. I have lived most of my adult life in Florida. I have family members that have worked in most other aspects of the real estate professions. I was able to witness the licensing of many of these occupations so that is what I have based my opinions on.


First off I want to say that I don?t need licensing to protect my territory or help me keep competition out.
I am most concerned about another group getting involved and setting the bar so high that it will put many of us out of business. The groups I am thinking of are the Florida Home Builders Association and the Florida Real Estate Commission (FREC). Each of these groups has great power when it comes to lobbying in Tallahassee. The comment made by Jeff Hopper while debating with Joe B about how inspectors in Florida are breaking the law is a great example of how one of these groups view home inspectors in Florida. I am sure that it was the GC and Building Official in him that made the comment. It should provide great insight into the thinking of one of those groups.

The last time I made comparisons to the trades everyone said you can?t compare the two, so let?s compare the other professions that work closely with the public in the real estate transaction.

Realtors- Who ever set up the requirements for realtors really knew what they were doing. A real estate agent is required to take a state test to be licensed. Once they pass the test they are a realtor. The only catch is that you can not open your own business until you have worked for a broker for a set number of years. This broker will take half of the monies that the agent makes while working under their license. Most brokers also require that you join the local board of realtors and the National Association of Realtors. This link will show you the requirements for becoming a realtor in Florida

http://www.state.fl.us/dbpr/re/frec_licensing_requirements.shtml#Real%20Estate%20Salesperson

Appraisers- They are required to work for a certified appraiser for two years before they can register to take the test. After they have the OJT done then they must pass a test before going into business. This group is also governed by the FREC. The link below will show the requirements for becoming an appraiser.

http://www.state.fl.us/dbpr/re/freab_licensing_requirements.shtml

CPCO- To perform termite inspections you must have worked for a certified pest control operator for three years. After that you must also pass a test to become certified. There are requirements for E&O insurance also. This link will show the requirements to become a CPCO.

http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/onestop/aes/pestcont.html

When you compare these requirements to what the new bill proposes as requirements are they really that unreasonable?

I really believe that if the HBA gets involved they will lobby so that only state licensed contractors would be qualified to perform home inspections.

I don?t even want to consider what FREC might propose as regulations concerning home inspectors. I know they have already made attempts to control our profession by the new contract they have. Read paragraph D & N in this contract if you haven?t already. I was shocked when I read them.

That is why I support the current bill. I think the bar could have been set much higher. While the bill isn?t perfect it is fair IMHO. I also believe that if as inspectors we can?t agree and get our own house in order then someone else will do it for us. When that happens most of us will be on the outside looking in.

For the moment let?s forget about grandfathering and look at what the bill will require for someone to get into the business.

1. You must have completed a 90 hour training class.
2. You must be of good moral character.
3. You must have completed High School or its equivalent.
4. You must pass a state approved test.
5. You must carry GL insurance.

Let?s take them one at a time.

1. There is no doubt that this is the most expensive requirement in the bill. But I think it is important to all of us that every applicant has some formal training instead of learning in the field. Will other parties benefit from this? YES any school will see a great increase in their enrollment.
2. Either you are or your not.
3. If you don?t have either of these then you will have to get your GED. There are plenty of opportunities available to study for that at a very low cost.
4. I am assuming that this test will be the NHIE and maybe the FABI test.
5. This is available now for a reasonable cost. If you don?t carry it now you should consider getting it. You never know when a true accident may happen.

As I understand the bill if it is made into law on July 1, 2005 then anyone with an occupational license before that date will have one year to meet the requirements. This should give anyone who does not qualify under grandfathering the time needed to meet these basic requirements.

How can NACHI help me if the law passes and I only have one year to qualify?

NHIE Testing
I feel that we should have training classes that will help prepare our members to pass the NHIE. I know that we have enough talent involved to accomplish this in house.

90 Hour Training
This is also something that I think the association could tackle. I know that we are not an educational venue. But we have come a long way towards providing education for our members in just a few years. I would like to see us develop a curriculum that would be approved by the state of Florida. The school could be portable. This would allow us to reduce the cost to each member as the school could come to them. There by saving the travel and lodging expenses. I have no doubt that we could offer the training to our members at a substantial savings compared to what is available in the free market now. Again I feel we have enough members with the talent needed to accomplish this in house.

I don?t ask for anyone to agree with me, I just ask that you take the time to consider what could happen should this bill not pass.

Thank you for your time.

Respectfully,


--
Greg Bell
Bell Inspection Service

Originally Posted By: gbell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Sorry I other thing to share,


There is no requirement to carry E&O insurance. That alone is worth a great deal. Again I would hate to think what might happen if we were required to carry it.


--
Greg Bell
Bell Inspection Service

Originally Posted By: jburkeson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Deleted… icon_biggrin.gif



Joseph Burkeson, RPI (Hooperette)


?Anyone who has proclaimed violence his method inexorably must choose lying as his principle.?
~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Originally Posted By: gbell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Joe


I do understand your concerns. I just reread the bill to see how it relates to those concerns. Under sec 5 it lists the occupations that are already licensed by the state. It includes many more than just the ones you listed. It also includes appraisers, any inspector doing work for the federal government, wdo inspectors, a firesafety inspector, an insurance adjuster, a master septic tank contractor and a certified energy auditor. It is my belief that these are included because the scope of work could overlap into what is defined as a home inspection in the bill. I really do not believe that the authors of this bill wrote it so that they could do an end run and do what you are worried about.

If it were true and their intent is as you described why spend all of the time and energy to work on legislation. It would have been much easier for them to go to the HBA and do exactly what you think they might be doing. They would have had legislation passed long ago. They would have saved a hell of a lot of time and gotten exactly what you are concerned with. I have no doubt that if the HBA tried to license home inspectors that they could implement exactly what you are concerned about. So why would they spend the time and energy to come up with the plan they have? I think they have because the first hat they wear is that of a home inspector.

I don?t know many of the people who were involved with working on this bill. I have only meet two of them once that was Jerry Peck and Jeff Hopper. When I first started as a home inspector Jerry was already a legend. I know that he has a wealth of knowledge and has always been willing to share it with any inspector no matter what association they belonged too. I don?t know a lot about Jeff Hooper, other than the fact that he is the President of FABI and Jerry Peck has aligned himself with him in a professional manner. I do not think that FABI is full of members who would elect someone to their highest position just to let him put most of them out of business. How many FABI members would be put out of business if your concerns did become reality? That is another reason why I feel it will not happen as you are afraid of.

As for Jeff?s comments that you listed; I do believe that he was trying to get you to see what others are thinking. I have no doubt that there are many members of the HBA that feel we are breaking the law. Many feel that lowly home inspectors are not qualified to come on their job and tell them what they are doing wrong. For just a moment put yourself in their shoes, would you like it? You are a journeyman electrician, how did you feel when the AHJ came on the job and told you to redo something because it was not like he thought it should be? That inspector is also licensed.

I can not give you or any of our Florida members a 100% guarantee that your concerns may not come true. I can give you a 100% guarantee that it will come true if we can not come to an agreement and all work together to regulate our profession. It is just a matter of time. So what do we do? Should we continue to have a divided house and allow the opportunity for someone else to get involved or do we take what has been proposed and work to improve it?

I would urge all of you to put aside your reservations for a moment and read the bill again without any prejudgments. I don?t see how a bill could be made any easier and still have some meaning.

Respectfully,


--
Greg Bell
Bell Inspection Service

Originally Posted By: jschwartz1
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One of the most glaring problems with the Bill is the assumption that inspectors that perform 250 inspections or have been in business for 3 years are more qualified than someone with less inspection experience. I would favor a standardize test for all applicants. I believe registration is better than licensing. Add the required test to the Bill and have an inspector take the exam every two years with registration renewal.


I guess the NHIE would be the test. I have not seen it. I believe the ICC test would also be in play. Heck if building inspectors need to pass it, then home inspectors would be fine to take it as well.

I look at the Bill in three ways. 1) It will limit competition. 2) It will increase the amount of $$$ a home inspection company may charge. 3) It may not achieve #1 or #2.

No one knows what the outcome will be for the industry, only themselves. You can see how many incompetent realtors there are in our industry. They are licensed and have to take a test!!!

I am against mentorship for any given amount of time. I do not feel a licensed electrician who has a good general knowledge of other systems should limit their income potential by helping out a grand-fathered inspection company with little electrical experience.

If there is going to be a standard for price estimates, that is an easy one. All labor at $75 per hour. And provide a materials list for roof repairs or replacements. In fact, how about eliminating estimates period!

Continuing education is a must and can be monitored by the national organization the inspector belongs to. That being said, the testing for membership may also be applied here for state compliance.

It may seem I am all over the place here in my statements, however, I notice there are only a few of us even making an effort.

I am anxious to see the outcome in Tallahassee. In the meantime I look forward to hearing your views.


--
Jay Schwartz
Coast To Coast Home Services, Inc
www.Coasttocoasthomeservices.com
Southeast Florida NACHI Chapter - VP www.floridanachi.org
NACHI - Legislative Committee Member
MAB - Member

Originally Posted By: dedwards
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First things first. The NHIE is the The ASHI test. It still belongs to ASHI make no mistake about it. By their own admission 40% of the test is not even about home inspections. The most missed questions come out of this bank of unrelated questions. Why do you suppose that is? Because you can “buy” prep tests that will prepare you for the test. Right now if you go to www.hometraining.com/exam_prep.html you can purchase for the low cost of either $599, $499 or $899 different package deals to gouge you up for taking the exam. Its always come back to one thing…Follow the MONEY! This is about money, it has always been about money. Why else would someone write a test that delibrately skews the odds of failing and then by splitting off and creating a company called the Examination Board of Professional Home Inspectors (EBPHI) that markets the technical parts of the ASHI exam under the name of NHIE. They picked the name National Home Inspectors Exam for a reason. It sounds official, governmental even. eight states have already adopted it for use as the state exam.


The 40% that isn’t about home inspections is about…New Construction and CODE! That right…CODE. We go to tremendous lengths to tell everyone that we are not code inspectors and then are going to be asked to take a Code test.


“We got this here test for you to take and you only got to pay us $195 to take it. If you fail you can retake it in 30 days for another $195.” If you fail it we got this here study guide you can buy from us for Oh say $900 and we guarantee you that you will pass the test." Now, does that sound kosher to you?


The Florida statute says any test given to award a license must adequately and reliably measure an applicant’s ability to practice the profession regulated by the department. By their own admission the test is approximately 40% non inspection related. And most will tell you if you do not know code you will fail. This bill stinks! It is not about protecting the consumer just as most have suspected. Its about protecting their own turf. The state law also has something to say about the security of the test. You can buy the new test right off the internet. So the test is already compromised.


So in theory if I were a french fry cook at WhataBurger and wanted to be a home inspector I could go through one the several schools around the country to make the 90 hour cut off, buy the exam off the internet, take the test and be in business next week. But if I am someone doing business today I have got to jump through my grommet and prove that I have several hundred inspections, take the test and a list of other requirements. Somethings wrong with this picture.


Originally Posted By: jschwartz1
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Joe and Doug:


I agree the bill is a piece of junk. I am 100% backing FAPHI's position. I feel that if any test is adopted for licensing, ALL should take it. No one should slide in. I know A$HI and NHIE are tied together. Do you think the exam would change if their members with 250 inspection under their belt were put out of business because they could not pass the NHIE a second time.

Having the answers and questions ahead of time is no big deal. I fly airplanes. The FAA publishes every question and answer for its 60 question test. There are over 2500 questions to choose from. NACHI needs to make a presence in this test certification deal. Why not use our entrance exam as the state minimum???


--
Jay Schwartz
Coast To Coast Home Services, Inc
www.Coasttocoasthomeservices.com
Southeast Florida NACHI Chapter - VP www.floridanachi.org
NACHI - Legislative Committee Member
MAB - Member

Originally Posted By: dedwards
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The whole point in registration is to put home inspectors on a registry for the state. Most if not all national associations require some kind of test. I do not want to get into which organization’s test is harder. That is like argueing about beauty amongst pigs. Everyone always wants to think they had a tougher test or a meaner coach or a harder boot camp. It is the nature of us all. All of them including the ASHI test is supposed to be a “minimum” requirement. The point I was making about the NHIE is that it is bogus. If 40% is about new construction and codes than it isn’t a home inspector test. And if the only way to pass it is to buy the answers what is the point of having a test in the first place. That is administering a test for the sake of testing. There is no real measure of competence. You mentioned flying…I had to take 3 tests annually when I flew in the Navy. But it was on things I was required to know, about the mission, aircraft, tactics, etc. not about areas I was not required to know or in the case of home inspectors I am not even suppose to be talking about (codes).


Another thing comes to mind. One article I read stated that less than 1% of inspections are done on New homes. I don’t think we are worrying the HBA too much. I can count on one hand the number or new construction I have done in ten years. Now I don’t do any. It’s too much BS and the customers often have unrealistic expectations about a new Home. They think everything is suppose to be perfect. Not even a blemish on a brick.


I stay plenty busy with older homes. Besides, in 3 years I will looking at that home because that’s how long most people live in a home. I digress.


Getting a licensing bill on the records just to have a law is poor legislation. And getting a poor law is criminal.


Originally Posted By: gbell
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Thank you for sharing your views. It is great to be able to share our views without any of us putting down the other. We will all have to live with what ever the future brings. It will be interesting to see what happens this time around.



Greg Bell


Bell Inspection Service

Originally Posted By: Scott Patterson
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Doug,


You sound like you know everything about the NHIE, I am curious have you even taken it?

You say that 40% of the NHIE has nothing to do with home inspections. I have never seen this printed, do you have the source for it?

I would like to ask you what is the difference between New Construction and a Pre existing home as far as what you are inspecting? As far as I know you are inspecting the same thing, and under the same standards.

As far as inspecting items to code, this is a misnomer that many inspectors just don't understand. Codes are minimal requirements that reflect more on safety than anything else.

I hope that you do inspect for safety(this is why you need to be aware of the codes). If you find that a section of stairs have a run of 4" with a 9" rise, I would hope that you would report this as being unsafe. If you agree with this you have just reported a code violation.

You find a bedroom with a gas furnace in the closet. I would hope that you also report this as a safety problem. Again this is also a code violation.

As you can see, knowing codes is a vital part of being a good home inspector. Codes have to do with all home inspections, just saying that you don't inspect to a particular code will not protect you in the courts if it ever gets that far. The reason that inspectors shy away from knowing the codes is their lack of familiarity to them. Buy a code book or the easy to use Code Check flip books and you will see how much the codes impact a good home inspection.



As for the NHIE being owned by ASHI, this is no longer true. ASHI relinquished all connections to EBPHI and the NHIE at the last ASHI board of Directors meeting, in Austin, TX. It is no secret that ASHI started and funded the NHIE, but the NHIE is noting like the old ASHI exam. It has no resemblance to it.


Scott Patterson
EBPHI, Board of Director Member


Originally Posted By: jschwartz1
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.







Quote:
As for the NHIE being owned by ASHI, this is no longer true. ASHI relinquished all connections to EBPHI and the NHIE at the last ASHI board of Directors meeting, in Austin, TX. It is no secret that ASHI started and funded the NHIE, but the NHIE is noting like the old ASHI exam. It has no resemblance to it.


Scott Patterson
EBPHI, Board of Director Member



--
Jay Schwartz
Coast To Coast Home Services, Inc
www.Coasttocoasthomeservices.com
Southeast Florida NACHI Chapter - VP www.floridanachi.org
NACHI - Legislative Committee Member
MAB - Member

Originally Posted By: tallen
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I hope that you do inspect for safety(this is why you need to be aware of the codes). If you find that a section of stairs have a run of 4" with a 9" rise, I would hope that you would report this as being unsafe. If you agree with this you have just reported a code violation.



Scott:

Do you report this as being in violation of XXXX code?


--
I have put the past behind me,
where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.

www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

Originally Posted By: Scott Patterson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



tallen wrote:
I hope that you do inspect for safety(this is why you need to be aware of the codes). If you find that a section of stairs have a run of 4" with a 9" rise, I would hope that you would report this as being unsafe. If you agree with this you have just reported a code violation.


Scott:

Do you report this as being in violation of XXXX code?


It depends on the house/situation, I might as I am comfortable with the codes. If I am asked to back up my findings this is when you start quoting chapter and verse of the codes.

Most of the time I will say "Per manufactures standards or guidelines" or I might say "For increased safety", seldom will you get an argument for increased safety.

Joe B.,

Never mind it not even worth my time.


Originally Posted By: tallen
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Myself, I never quote code, but of course it is our job to know the codes.


I just do not want to get into the legalities of saying ( this is in violation of xxxx code) Not my job.


--
I have put the past behind me,
where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.

www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

Originally Posted By: rwand
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



If it is a 50 year old house and existing conditions why would anyone quote code let alone call it out as a code or safety issue? I consider it existing and might be inclined to tell the client to upgrade when renovating. You can’t make old houses new again and many items will not be inline with current regulations.


Keep the Realtors out of home inspection regulation, do yourselves a favour.

Raymond Wand
Alton, ON


--
The value of experience is not in seeing much,
but in seeing wisely. - Sir William Osler 1905

http://www.raymondwand.ca
NACHI Member
Registered Home Inspector (R.H.I.)