Missing main panel legend

(Ted Emmes, NACHI#06062194 HI 79) #1

Would you call out the fact there is no legend or identification of breakers on a main panel during a 4 Pt?

(Roy Lewis, CMI - North Florida Inspector) #2

Yes!
"Breakers were not properly labeled. All breakers should be labeled as to show their intended purpose. "

(Ted Emmes, NACHI#06062194 HI 79) #3

Thank you, my thoughts exactly.

Just settling a disagreement with another inspector.

(Marc A. Goldenberg, Inspector Lic # HI1365 Mold Assessor Lic #1) #4

requirement of the National Electric Code: (breakers/circuits not labeled)

408.4 Circuit Directory or Circuit Identification.
Every circuit and circuit modification shall be legibly identified as to its clear,
evident, and specific purpose or use.
The identification shall include sufficient detail to allow each circuit to be distinguished from all others.

:slight_smile:

(Joseph Burkeson, CMI) #5

When did a 4 point turn insurance inspection into a code inspection, and where is the ‘panel legend’ check box on the four point form?

Why would anyone make it harder for their clients to obtain insurance? :roll:

(Roy Lewis, CMI - North Florida Inspector) #6

That isn’t your choice dirtbag…
It is what it is…And nothing can change that…

(Marc A. Goldenberg, Inspector Lic # HI1365 Mold Assessor Lic #1) #7

Maybe someone in his family will get electrocuted 'cause they cannot find the breaker to switch off. :slight_smile:

(Mike Pagozalski, CMI) #8

I would check the “other” box…

(Eric C. Van De Ven, CMI) #9

Because if the insurance company sends out their own inspector, and he finds it along with other items that were omitted “to make it easier for the client to obtain insurance”, said client may be a little upset with someone. Care to guess who that “someone” might be?

I run into this very issue on several occasions and simply say, “Ask the previous inspector for your money back”.

Getting back to the original question, absolutely write it up.
Regardless if it is code or not, one might want to know what a certain breaker controls…

(Joseph Burkeson, CMI) #10

I provide the all information asked for on the form. If and when the Florida Office of Insurance Regulation ever updates the Four Point Form to include a checkbox for ‘Panel Legend’ I will then make it a business practice to do so. In the meantime, I simply choose not to manufacture problems which would hinder my client from obtaining insurance by supplementing information the insurance companies have apparently deemed inconsequential to underwriting.

(Joseph Burkeson, CMI) #11

I provide the all information asked for on the form. If and when the Florida Office of Insurance Regulation ever updates the Four Point Form to include a checkbox for ‘Panel Legend’ I will then make it a business practice to do so. In the meantime, I simply choose not to manufacture problems which would hinder my client from obtaining insurance by supplementing information the insurance companies have apparently deemed inconsequential to underwriting.

(Roy Lewis, CMI - North Florida Inspector) #12

I don’t think the Florida Office of Insurance Regulation has anything to do with it…
It’s the insurance companies.

How about this on the form …
Adverse conditions or updates needed?

(Eric C. Van De Ven, CMI) #13

Or if using the citizens form:
The Florida-licensed inspector is **required **to certify the condition of the electrical, HVAC and plumbing systems. Acceptable
Condition means that each system is working as intended and there are no visible hazards or deficiencies.

Is breaker panel that isn’t labeled a deficiency? :wink:

Then…there is this: All 4-Point inspection Forms must be completed and signed by a verifiable Florida-licensed Inspector.
I certify that the above statements are true and correct.

To each his own…

Oh, Joe, several insurance companies, including the 2 I have used for our rental property as well as our home in Palm City, sent their inspectors out…just sayin…

(Joseph Burkeson, CMI) #14

Guess it depends who you ask. My business model respects that the Insurance Companies, policy underwriters and the Office of Insurance Regulation have intentionally limited ‘The Four Point Form’ to items deemed important to the underwriting community, and at this point assume that ‘Panel Directories’ like the many other ‘missing’ items of importance are simply inconsequential noise when it comes to underwriting policy decisions. It is not my form, I only provide the data of what is asked.

(Eric C. Van De Ven, CMI) #15

As stated by others, the OIR has noting to do with it.
Each insurance company will determine what they are willing to accept to issue a policy.

I wouldn’t want to “assume” what they are looking for.
I simply provide the information and let them choose what they want fixed.
If they don’t care about the panel not being labeled or “missing items of importance”, fine.

That decision isn’t up to me.

(Kevin D. Brown, MD License #32990) #16

A missing fuse panel legend should be called out as a defect

(Joe Funderburk, CMI) #17

Various circuits within the main panel are not labeled, were mis-identified, or the labels were illegible or non-specific. They should be properly labeled for safety reasons, and so that the appropriate load calculations and breaker sizes can be determined. Once identified, a licensed contractor, electrician, or competent person should ensure the following: 1) that there are at least two 20-amp circuits for the kitchen countertop; 2) the presence of at least one 20-amp circuit for the bathroom(s); 3) the presence of a 20 amp circuit for the laundry area; 4) ensure the breaker for the HVAC system is appropriately sized.

(Preston L. Halstead, HI549) #18

We have many properties and only have had an inspector from the insurance company take pictures from the street, but I agree it can happen. Did you ever find it funny they don’t ask about foundation or other structural issues and you guys are here arguing over if the panel is labeled or not? :slight_smile:

(Eric C. Van De Ven, CMI) #19

Not funny, sad actually.
The reason for that is that most of them are not properly trained to inspect anything…much less a home.

I had one “inspector” ask me “If I found anything he should be aware of”.

My answer was, shall we say, somewhat sarcastic. :slight_smile:

Good to see you back Preston!

(Preston L. Halstead, HI549) #20

I decide that because I still like to interact I would try to come back here instead of all the Facebook groups. This is public. Unfortunately the closed Facebook groups can not be seen by the general public. If they could, one of 2 things could happen…