Moisture meters

Yesterday, I encountered a really wet crawlspace with wet insulation all over the place (image attached). I immediately checked moisture content in the hardwood floors above with my Tramex. Guess what, it was around 20%. Some joists were rotten. The client called me yesterday and thanked me. He called a contractor after I left, who investigated it further and quoted him $35,000 for repairs! So, I think Tramex is a good tool to have sometimes.

Robert Elliott,

I use a combo pin/RF moisture meter. As others, I do around the toillet, shower, stains. When using it on stains I also check nearby areas of same material that do not appear stained to get a base referance.

Also sometimes under windows. I also use it to scan the glass on double pane windows to see if there is a low-E coating for another service I provide but this is beyond the scope of a normal HI.

I also stuck it in my wife’s over cooked pot roast at the dinner table. … come to think of it… we haven’t had pot roast since then :slight_smile:

Joe Funderburk,
I don’t understand your statement regarding >20% and >28%. If its conductive to mold then you have decay. Mold consumes the materal as it grows. Doesn’t your statement suggest that at 25% you can have mold and not decay?

Robert OConnor,
Moisture meters (very crappy ones) can be purchased around here in the local Do-It-Yourself Centers. At one time the laser level was considered to be a contractor tool not commonly owned by homeowners. Now they are common place with the general public. With all the hype about mold and moisture, I’m sure you will be seeing more homeowners with moisture meters.

Joe, I think what you’re saying is that different wood species have different levels of resistance to decay and that’s what you mean by “moisture content may vary depending on wood species and the age.” Is that right?

Anyway, since decay is caused by mold fungus, I’d like to know the thinking is behind WDI inspectors calling out 20% moisture level for mold fungus colony growth (which seems to be what’s meant by “mold”) and 28% for fungal decay activity.

It could be that there are types of mold fungi in your area which become active at the lower moisture level, but which are not decay fungi.

In addition, there are two fungal issues…

  1. material damage from decay fungi

  2. health concerns due to elevated levels of spores in indoor air from actively reproducing fungal colonies.

Has anyone used the Wagner moisture meters? They looked pretty slick in the ad, adjusting for wood species and measuring from 5% to 30% moisture. I think that one was $240.

My Surveymaster won’t read below 10% and I have to refer to a hardcopy table of conversions for wood species. It was a lot more than $240 too. I think the Wagners read from .75" to 1.5" deep.

Oh, the old water hose test. How long do you test? How much velocity? What angles of deflection and or impact?

Trying to duplicate a winter storm or three days of continuous inclement weather conditions with a water hose is not for me.

It’s 2007, time to get the lastest tools available for the job. You know what Shakespear said:

“Grow or Die”

Maybe that wasn’t Shakespear;-)

I use a Tramex Moisture Encounter Plus. I believe it throws a 1.25" signal. Its been fantastic. Its about 2 years old and wouldn’t turn on one day. I sent to Tramex service center in Colorado. One week later it showed up at my house with new battery connector, new contact pads, fresh calibration and best of all, free of charge…

I’ll be buying all of my future moisture related products from Tramex!

Nice…

Ut oh, hmmm.

well, lets see here… for 3 decades we see to be doing fine, thank you very much. Have had no problems defining a HO`s problem/entry points(s) with a hose.

guess what? Using yer moisture meter is NOT going to define most homeowners problems/entry points…i`ll say it again, will NOT find how/where the water is entering.

shtt, when called over for an estimate, its already understood there is a water/moisture problem so, what the fk good is the screwy moisture meter to me? My job is to FIND the problem(s), a crack(s), rod hole(s), openings above ground etc. Moisture meters don`t do this. lol

what, bring a moisture meter with me and say to HO…‘Duh, my meter is picking up water/moisture in hollow blocks’ ??? Still need to FIND the problem(s)!

So, you still think i need to ‘get the latest super duper tools available’? :mrgreen:

I could care less than 2 CRAPS what Shakespear etc said, did Shakespear do basement waterproofing?

Who said anything about duplicating a ‘winter storm’?

Let me ask you sir :mrgreen: …if there is paneling/drywall up and yer meter tells ya there is water/moisture behind it, do you think youve solved their problem? Do ya tell em to 'Oh, just raise the grade-longer extensions on downspout and that usualy solves their problem'? (like some other HIs)

Does your meter detect crack(s) behind drywall? nope. Does it detect crack(s) that could be widening? nope. Does it tell ya if rod holes are the problem? nope. Does it detect any walls that may be bowing in? nope

Mr. Bubber;

How are you and hope you are keeping busy. And I am sure you are.

Your last Post seems to direct your dissatisfaction on how we perform Home Inspections.

Since our duties here as Home Inspectors is to provide Clients with a non-invasive, and honest assessment of the condition of the Home they plan on purchasing, there is no need for you to insult us by saying that obtaining or usuage of moisture meters is not fixing the problem.

We are not there to solve or fix the problem, point blank.

We might even recommend you as a repair man since now we all know that you are an expert, but can not express himself unless using four letter words in disguise.

I highly reccommend your capabilities on the repairs and remediation that you do, but please do not start bashing the Hi’s on this post for using equipment aids to supplement the finds of the regular Inspections that would not be otherwise found.

I have enjoyed some of the pictures that you have supplied in the past Posts, and hope you continue to do so.

Unfortunately when it comes to block foundations, you will find me to not be an advocate, because most builders do not know how to build them, and waterproof the exterior and backfill.

What is keeping you in business, is testimony to that fact.

My building techniques and knowledge of such will not permitt me to build such foundations to the letter of the Code, but unfortunately, some do.

All in all, your post can be found very informative for some and would suggest you continue in a more Politically correct fashion that will not insult some of my Associates on how and what they use to do Home Inspections.

We are all Generalists and not specialist like you claim to be.

So while we use our toys, to find what may be the problem that caused other issues, we will reccommend you and leave it up to you to repair.

These post above are for the benefit of the Associate Members, which you are not, but welcome to join anytime you wish and share your experience with foundations or at least why they leak.

I am here to share my experiences with all and for the past 40 years, building all my foundations in Northern Maine, I have yet to have seen a call for your services.
And yes, I would use a moisture meter, because I am not there to fix it under the hat I am wearing at that time.

Thank you.

Marcel :slight_smile:

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Your the man Marcel!!!

Mr Cyr,

dissatisfaction? umm, yes!!! lol with ‘SOME’ HI`s, yes!

have not only heard bs from some HIs but have seen/read their written reports on what they supposedly foundn actually recommended would solve leaky bsmt… i said ‘some’.

Non-invasive and honest assessment of the CONDITION of the home?
Often one cannot ‘honestly assess’ the ACTUAL CONDITION of a
leak/basement wall if you cannot SEE it.

So while one can understand
many of you wont be taking off a piece of drywall(having HO do it) or doing a water-hose test one also cant buy the ‘actual condition’ of the home part, in THIS case, a basement wall. Ya follow? :mrgreen:

Say again, if it`s a finished basement then you cannot honestly assess
the real-condition of the basement walls and any possible crack(s),leak.

Im not just yapping about any HIs, talking about these salespeople
from inside-waterdiverting companies who do not diagnose/assess the
actual condition of bsmt walls, leak.

Marcel, What is your method for building a block foundation?

Paul;

To answer your question, it took me a while to find something even close to what I mean to explain. This is the closest thing I could find.

http://www.beavertownblock.com/pg9a.gif

I would like to set the record straight regarding concrete masonry unit foundations. There is no other basement system currently available with the design flexibility of a concrete masonry unit foundation. Concrete masonry unit foundations can be designed to meet all job site conditions. The built-in design flexibility of concrete masonry units is virtually limitless! Concrete masonry units can be manufactured to different strengths, ranging from their normal 1,900 PSI to well over 5,000 PSI. With proper placement of Re bar and grout in the cores, you can achieve 60 PCF fluid pressure at a lower cost than with other available systems.

The cores in concrete masonry units serve to lower the dew point in the wall. This stops sweating, which is very common on solid walls and other foundation systems.
A home is only as good as the foundation it sits on. Do you really want to build your home without using a solid-steel reinforced footer? Concrete masonry units provide structural benefits at an affordable price and save you money in which you can use to upgrade your living space. Concrete masonry units are the preferred choice of both home builders and home buyers in some areas.

I have outlined using the numbers on the picture for further explanation.

#1 4" concrete floor 3000 psi. concrete w/ 15 mil Stego wrap moisture barrier or equivalent.

#2 steel reinforcement 5/8" @ 32" o. c. .

#3 type M or S mortar.

#4 waterproofing membrane bituthane 4000 or equivalent with drainage board

#5 12" cmu with bond beam course at 2’ o.c. vertically with two #4 bars.
and one course at top of wall.

#6 4" perimeter drain using S & D perforated pipe with a crushing strength of 1500-3000 psi

#7 3/4" crushed stone

#8 Non woven geotectile fabric wrapped over top of underdrains

#9 clean sit-free gravel 3" minus

#10 horizontal dura-wall block reinforcement on 16" o.c. vertically

#11 2" insulation full height of foundation to within 3" of grade

#12 Not shown 1/2" corner bar reinforcement at bondbeam courses.

#13. Not shown Grout all cores with 2500 psi block grout.

This is what would hold up in this part of the Country and not leak.
System design would and could be different based on the geographical area.

My preference, Concrete Foundation fully reinforced.

If one will spend $300,000 plus on a house, why not build it on a proper foundation to begin with.

It is kind of pay me now, or pay me later situation.

Hope this helps.

Marcel :slight_smile: :smiley:
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I have come across or evaluated situations where use of a moisture meter did not pick up significant moisture penetration or water damage … and other cases where high moisture levels were indicated, but that was not the case based on further investigation and monitoring over time.

In addition ask yourself this question … what are the industry accepted standards (e.g ASTM), procedures, sampling locations, and moisture levels for various circumstances and locations. You also need to consider weather conditions preceding an inspection.

Specialized tools like moisture meters can be useful … but take readings with large grains of salt, and do not use as a substitute for knowledge and a thorough inspection using you most important and powerful tools … your senses and your mind.

JMO & 2-nickels … :wink:

Thank You Marcel for taking the time to detail it out. One question though. Unless I misunderstand, you seem to have two points that contradict each other.

If all the cores are grouted, won’t it function similar to a poured foundation with respect to sweating?

Paul;

That is because of text from the detail that was provided with the detail and true only when the cores are not filled.

I have seen where frost will transmitt through the web of the block at the top of the wall in colder climates.

That is the purpose of the 2" Styrofoam equivalent to the Formula 250 to prevent this when the cores are filled.
One could also go the extra mile and use insulated block cores, but doubt anyone would use them.

Good catch on your part.

Thanks

Marcel :slight_smile:
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