Neutral and ground double lug

I know this topic has been beat to death here, but I came across something interesting today. Every single grounded conductor is doubled with one grounding… (just one each) On site, I knew I was going to write this up, but as I got home, looking at the pics, I realized they are all the exact same. I didn’t follow the wires up to see if they are all on the same circuits… but i was curious if this would change anything, assuming the grounded and the grounding were all lugged together from their same circuits? Since this doesn’t follow the rule of not being able to isolate the circuit?
I’m still writing it up, just thought this was interesting…

Neutrals should be on a lug not used by another conductor.


Daniel, I ran into many grounded and grounding conductors, from the same circuit,
under the same lug at the service disconnect and I always wrote it up, but chances are they will never be changed.

It is as Roy said. Grounded conductors need their own lug…period.

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Thanks guys, I agree, i was just curious since i had never seen it done so methodically, wondering if there was a reason 20 years ago…

meticulously ignorant or stupid sparky
there really is a difference


To my understanding this is an example of parallel path; making the ground and any metal component carry the neutral current and instead of stoping it will create a fault current. It won’t go back home (transformer) or to earth. Also, I have read it is most dangerous with a sub panel and that each neutral should have its own lug for safety (even if on the same bus bar). “I am still learning please correct me if I am wrong, honestly I am utterly confused with floating bars and bus bars”.

That condition does not create a fault condition nor does it energize the metallic parts.

Why not, explain please?

One current carrying conductor per lug because it is unlikely that two wires will be compressed equally allowing one to over heat etc. ie: one will be loose. In a sub panel with a three wire feed and no other metallic connection to the service panel the grounds must connect to the neutral buss otherwise they would not have a return path to ground at the service panel. A four wire feed to a sub panel or a three wire feed with a metallic path back to the service panel must have the grounds separated at the sub panel and this is to prevent a parallel current path to the to the service panel. Think of and treat a three wire fed sub the same as you would the service panel. This was changed in the 2008 NEC, and only applies to new construction or complete replacement of existing. As for the ground and neutral being on the same lug apparently they taught that in the first week of the IBEW apprenticeship in our area because it is always a sign of an experienced but not up to date electrician.

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In a ‘sub’ panel yes in the ‘main’ panel no.

You are truly crazy… Why do you think the NEC requires it?
I’m going to flag that post…
408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.

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Thanks Roy. You apparently don’t understand
Ohio law. What I posted is the opinion of OBBS.

Screw Ohio law this is the NEC.
What if the grounding and grounded conductors became loose and were touching each other.
(The Neutral is a current carrying conductor.)
Would it possible in the above example that the neutral could send current down the ground?

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If you separate the two wires they are still electrically connected. So the answer is no.

Perfectly SAFE!

Read the above…Again!
Did they teach you reading skills in OHIO?
"The intent of this requirement is to ensure that the grounded (neutral) conductor of a multiwire branch circuit is not momentarily disconnected, which could result in the destruction of electrical equipment and fires from overvoltage. "

No disagreement there. But now you are citing code. Your example is not applicable for single family homes. See NFPA 70E since you like citing code.


I’ll cite code everyday if I know it to be true.
From Mike Holt…

You truly are insane !
It’s referring to ALL multiwire branch circuit.

That is TRUE. A code requirement. Not a safety issue in a single family home. Especially this example.

Would you remove the two wires on a live circuit? No. So no issue unless you are an idiot.

If the panel is energized rules are in place to prevent your example. See NFPA 70E.

Do what you want I am just explaining Ohio rules to Ohio inspectors.


We just had a Honorable Mention for a Non-Member Guest… And well deserved.
I nominate you as a Dishonorable Mention for a Non-Member Guest… :star_struck:
Anyone agree?
@mgoldenberg @lkage @mcyr