NYS has determined that the astm guidelines for inspections is too involved, and therefor will not be accepted for continuing education credit for home inspectors.
The state has accepted clsses such as mold, HUD inspections, Home deficeincies, Plumbing, elctrical, etc. They also acepted a thermal imgaing class as part of the home inspection.
We have taken these approved classes, and created a program for “Green” and “Energy” Inspections.
The ASTM Class will not be part of the series, since it is outside of the state guidelines as per the State of NY. Just found out in writing yesterday.
ASTM isn’t a standards organization, they are a *charge everyone to put their 2 cents in, and then charge everyone to access *organization, which is why their standards are so horribly authored.
I would disagree with your percentage. Some of our episodes are based on some standards which are based on some codes which some are developed by various sources. And I’m not sure I’d give a stakeholder coordination company the status of “author” so quickly. There are many contributors to almost all documents.
We try to bias all our episodes toward home and ancillary inspection inspectors, not code officials. However, that may change. We’re about to be granted GSA approval to produce government funded, online video, code official courses. It’s a big world though, and there is only so much pie we can eat… we’re on the fence leaning away from it for now.
ASTM is not an original source though. They author almost nothing. Don’t let the T in their old name (they changed it a couple years ago) fool ya. I lived next to their building for 7 years. They test nothing. They are a group of technical writers who compile text contributed by stakeholders that they coordinate. Facilitators, yes. Authors, no. To borrow a recently used percentage, 99.9% of their committee members are not ASTM employees.
I understand that…but you cannot ignore the fact that an overwhelming majority of AHJ’s in North America and other parts of the world are enforcing standards that were provided from ASTM to the ICC for inclusion in the IRC and IBC (no matter how they came about obtaining or validating them).
Agreed. They are a conduit. As to whether the coordination of what goes through that conduit from the original source to the end document adds value to it or not… well, you call 'em as you see 'em. I probably shouldn’t pick on them too much. It’s tough to put a good document together. Much of their stuff is excellent. Much of it, like their commercial SOP, is crap.
Regardless of what you may believe, a majority of those who perform commercial inspections, including professional engineering firms, architects, and accounting firms, do conform to the outlines for a PCA as provided via ASTM. These folks will likely never utilize the COMSOP. Too bad, really, because it does contasin some good stuff.
While NACHI’s COMSOP is a viable alternative, one simply cannot dismiss the ASTM standard.
We teach compliance with both. I believe that the two compliment each other, and should not compete. The idea is conformance and compliance, not necessarily dominance with one over another. My course emphasizes that the real idea is to provide a guide for producing a quality work product, and help protect the inspector along the way.
Both have strong points… and some weak points. The idea is in understanding both, compliance, and comprehending what you have signed up to do.
BTW, NY rejected the course not due to the standard, but with the understanding that ASTM is clearly designed for COMMERCIAL property condition assessments. Inspection regulations stop at the residential side. As the NY State DOS, who licenses HIs is also the department in charge of all Code Officials in the state, and is the Department (along with the NY State Department of Education) that works with ASTM on a variety of issues, it was no real secret that teaching a course using a recognized commercial inspection standard for residential inspector CEUs probably wouldnt fly.
It was worth a try, though.
BTW:
This is not really true. Their committees and working groups do author a lot.
Joe, their committees are almost entirely made up of non ASTM employees. How could they have experts on everything? Do you really think their committee on Jet Fuel is at ASTM? Nonsense. They are facilitators of other people and coordinators of other people’s work, not original authors.
Anyway, the number of people who use ASTM’s commercial SOP (mostly because of a historical lack of other options) is large but dwarfed by the number of people who complain about it and even further dwarfed by the number of people who have divorced themselves from it.
The document that ASHI and InterNACHI pointed to at the Philadelphia meeting (that I attended) in defeating ASTM’s attempt to rewrite our industry’s residential SOP was their own commercial SOP, that’s how bad it is.
Many of their documents are great, but their commercial SOP is a mess. It’s not an SOP at all actually, it’s a scope of work permission form, and a long says-nothing one at that. The second largest inspection association, ASHI, publicly ridiculed it to defeat ASTM’s rewrite of our residential SOP. The largest inspection association agreed and thought it so awful that it wrote its own.
Your argument that it’s popularity means something, negates to mention that it was the only game in town for many years. I live in a mountain town, 20 miles from anything and we have only 1 pizza shop. It is the worst pizza you’ll ever taste and ridiculously expensive…and yet the shop very popular. Figure it out.
Joe,
I served on two ASTM committees for almost 11-years.
I can tell you that the committee members are considered “Experts in THEIR fields” and that A LOT OF RESEARCH, Laboratory testing, and Laboratory analysis goes into each and every “VOTE” / decision for a specific standard and or change to any document.
Those that say different are just speculating and speaking with a lack of knowledge of the inner workings of ASTM and their individual committees!
Frank makes my point. ASTM uses the expertise of others like Frank. They don’t hire this expertise in-house (Frank wasn’t employed by ASTM), they facilitate outside expertise.
There is much good that comes from this (two heads are better than one).
There is much difficulty that comes from this (two cooks spoil the meal).
One need only read ASTM’s Commercial SOP to find evidence of all the many cooks.
Just to make matters clear… You are referring to the ASTM Commercial SOP.
I am referring to the time tested and proven methods of ALL and I repeat ALL ASTM Committees!
As others have already pointed out… ASTM is the recognized leading authority in our field.
They are the most “Quoted / Referred” to authority in the Building Codes.
I applaud you for trying to come up with a “Better” and more comprehensive Commercial SOP!
I see nothing wrong with your efforts and like the “ICC CODES” which are amended and improved upon each and every year ASTM does not sit idly by and stagnate… they are also constantly reviewing their material for areas of improvement.
I say… Keep up the good work! I am confident that NACHI will come up with something worthwhile and as soon as they do… each year they will come up with something to improve upon an already good idea.
KUDOS to you and the NACHI staff and personnel that are working on this project!:nachi: :nachi: :nachi:
Correct. I only know about, in great detail, their commercial SOP. Which is why we had to write our own. An added advantage of writing our own legally defensible one is that we were able to procure free commercial E&O. www.nachi.org/comsop.htm
It covers everyone in our network of InterNACHI members without me having to list each of them or their companies. It is totally free insurance for our guys. And, InterNACHI members who prefer to operate outside the network get one of those great exclusive discounts if they use www.nachi.org/comsop.htm instead of the silly SOP. The discount will be about $1300-$1600. I think that should end the matter of dueling commercial SOP’s in N. America quite quickly.
So… If tomorrow morning… I conduct a Commercial Inspection and use the NACHI Commercial SOP I am automatically covered with FREE E. & O. insurance for this particular inspection?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gromicko
*It covers everyone in our network of InterNACHI members without me having to list each of them or their companies.
It is totally free insurance for our guys.
[size=3][FONT=Arial]As a certified NACHI member am I “***Automatically ***” in your network? [/size]
And, InterNACHI members who prefer to operate outside the network get one of those great exclusive discounts if they use www.nachi.org/comsop.htm](http://www.nachi.org/comsop.htm) instead of the silly SOP.
What network are you referring to?
The discount will be about $1300-$1600. I think that should end the matter of dueling commercial SOP’s in N. America quite quickly.
Quote Frank Carrio:
So… If tomorrow morning… I conduct a Commercial Inspection and use the NACHI Commercial SOP I am automatically covered with FREE E. & O. insurance for this particular inspection? End Quote:
Bump![/FONT]
Nick,
I am still waiting for an answer on the “Free” E & O. Insurance for those who use the NACHI Commercial SOP.
