Question for Dominic…
While including the NACHI commercial SOP on a software package is okay, why would you not also provide the ATSM SOP option, as well?
That’s what most of us in the industry are presently using. Since ATSM allows itself to be modified by mutual agreement of the client and inspector, I would imagine that most inspectors are conforming to ASTM standards whether they realize it or not.
I know you market your software packages to inspectors of all associations. Why the self-imposed restriction?
We aren’t restricting anything. We’re in the process of creating 2 additional commercial templates, one is another more detailed NACHI CommSOP template and the second is based on ASTM. Both are in the process of being built right now and should be done in the next week or so. All in good time!
Sorry, typed that too fast and was looking at James’ post. Fixed it above.
Hurry up Dominic.
It s not like you have anything better to do:)
(thumb, thumby ,thumb ,thumb) THUMB,THUMB.)
It’s ok ,because he knows.
Lol, you could always start creating the templates instead. It would free up time for me to work on other new features you want
Thats why I use one Template.
The Condo Bob Special for all occasions.
ASTM’s SOP isn’t an SOP. Read it and you’ll find that it says almost nothing. Requires almost nothing. Restricts almost nothing. You’ll find you’ll have as much trouble making a template out of it as inspectors have trying to follow it. Good luck though.
ASTM is a universally accepted guide for performing a commercial property condition assessment.
NACHI is treating COMSOP as a competing guide, but ASTM is NOT a competing organization.
ASTM is the single largest standards-writing body in the world. It documents a multitude of procedures and specifications noted and recognized worldwide.
ASTM is responsible for thousands of standards, procedures, and specifications. They are major contributors to ICC, IBC, IRC, NEC, and NFPA. They used to contribute to BOCA and CABO. They are a sister organization to ISO and ANSI. ANSI and NSF, as an example, write the conformance specifications used by the EPA in the SWDA. ASTM is a major contributor to this effort.
While NACHI inspectors may recognize the COMSOP we have put forward, it is also important to recognize your inspection space and who we are trying to compete with. The bottom line is that architects, engineers, inspectors, and large accounting firms utilize ASTM 2018-08 exclusively. In the world of commercial inspections, many of us will compete in this arena.
For that matter, ASTM is the sole recognized standard for Phase 1 environmental assessments, and has written and ratified the recognized process for mold investigation (In March 2006, ASTM released the new E2418-06 Standard Guide for Readily Observable Mold and Conditions Conducive to Mold in Commercial Buildings: Baseline Survey Process).
These standards are embraced by most, if not all, governmental authorities, whether on the federal, state, or local level. While some others may also be recognized, the ASTM standards are near-defacto, not only in North America, but worldwide.
So, its important to recognize ALL standards, and to UNDERSTAND their strong points and weak points.
I teach BOTH, and teach compliance with BOTH.
We can pretend all we want. The plain truth is that we, as a trade association, should not be teaching members to ignore anything.
One complaint I heard yesterday was that NACHI should stop bashing other associations, bodies, and efforts. We should embrace a variety of tools and standards available to us to help IMPROVE what we do and how we do it.
It need not be at the expense of another.
Want to learn what you need to know? Join me at my next Certified Commercial Inspection seminar. Next one is in the Washington DC Metro Area at the end of October.
Long after NACHI has ceased to be…ASTM will be continuing to quantify and establish standards for the many industries that it has been for years.
Major parts of the IBC, IRC, fire codes and every other standard in use by our industry came from ASTM.
In fact, I doubt that ASTM would even qualify NACHI as a legitimate trade association if it were to apply similar defining measurements as others do.
Not saying any of that, Jim.
All I am saying is that an inspector needs to understand what they are up against, and realities of the industries they venture into. Many home inspectors are venturing into the realm of Commercial Inspections as revenue falls off due to a slowing housing market.
Regardless of the reason, and regardless of what format or rule an inspector follows, the bottom line is that knowledge and understanding of the recognized standards is the first, and perhaps the most important step, in performing an inspection.
ASTM is real. COMSOP is real. They are NOT competing standards, and should not be considered as such. I believe they should be regarded as complimentary, provided that things are disclaimed from BOTH, and in favor of the INSPECTOR, and not the affilliated association or organization that crafted the document.
To do less, IMO, perverts the intent.
I know you are not, Joe.
My statement is in addition to yours and in response to Nick’s attack on the same institution that provides him with material for NACHI Tv. Where does he think the statistics quoted in his board notching video actually came from?
There he goes again. Where do you get this stuff Jim? It is almost as if you are reading from some message board in a parallel universe. I only made 2 posts in this thread.
Anyway, I said nothing about ASTM. All I said was that their mis-titled commercial SOP isn’t an SOP. Totally unusable. Hence www.nachi.org/comsop.htm
From here, where you said…
…and here, where you said…
…and here, where you said…
…and here, where you said…
ASTM E2018-08 (or 01, or 99) is pretty much the defacto standard for performing commercial property condition assessments, worldwide.
It is a voluntary guide, which also states that one need not follow it to perform a proper PCA. Right there, ASTM recognizes and accepts that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Why you refuse to acknowledge the ASTM model as a good model is ponderous.
For the life of me, I cannot understand the need on your part to continually bash this standard. If anything, our job as an association is to provide guidance to our members wherever we can. Slamming an internationally recognized standard for the sake of NOTHING is NOT where we need to be going. COMSOP is an acceptable alternative, but will likely never displace the ASTM model, nor should it.
If anything, it should be a complimentary model, which intertwine with one another. The flexibility of ASTM, in conjunction with some of the task-oriented sections of COMSOP makes them great partners. This is why I push an understanding of BOTH models and teach my students to comply with both.
THAT is true power, without having to choose one over the other. That is TRUE direction, backed by knowledge, aimed at the benefit of inspectors, and not to the detriment of another organization’s product.
Right now, many engineers are drawing a line in the sand with regard to the performance of a commercial inspection. MAny believe that they are the only ones qualified. Discounting their claim may be easy or hard, depending on where things shake out and where the battles are fought. We ain’t speaking about a residential inspection, here. When one thinks that the range of what constitutes a commercial endeavor, as opposed to a residential setting, anyone can see where their argument can and will go.
In reality, there are big dollars at stake. We do not help ourselves by showing up to the dance waving a piece of paper we call a standard, and using it to slam something developed by the foremost standards body worldwide. We will look foolish.
ASTM, ANSI, ans ISO walk in lock-step. They are backed by ICC and NFPA to name a few. As we currently reference many of what ASTM already crafts, we will look all the more foolish by arbitrarily dismissing their E2018 standard in the manner we do. In reality, it makes absolutely zero sense at this point in time.
Again, it’s an argument we truly risk losing, and an argument we shouldnt be making. We can speak to our strength, experience and wisdom, and not appear to be stamping our feet.
When we make unsubstantiated statements like this one:
we look like idiots.
Jim, you will note in ALL your quotes from me that were not made on this thread… ALL of them were attacking their so called Commercial SOP, not ASTM.
ASTM’s SOP is not an SOP.
You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.
You can title a poorly written, liability ridden, Scope of Work permission document a Commercial SOP, but it’s still a poorly written, liability ridden, Scope of Work permission document.
Joe Farsetta can name all the other good things ASTM has done till the cows come home, but it won’t change that their commercial SOP is unusable. A liability grenade in the hands of every fool using it.
Allow me to be as a question.
Care to share all the lawsuits that must have happened from inspectors using ASTM and the scope of work agreement?
Your comment as to how ASTM (the organization) has “gouged” the public by charging them for their “lousy” SOP was meant to be complimentary, I suppose.
Oh, well. It doesn’t matter.
Apparently Joe’s request for a reasonable and professional stance on this issue has (typically) fallen upon deaf ears.
It will prove to be NACHI’s loss, but then…it really matters little to those who will be continuing to compete and win jobs using the industry accepted standard.
We “fools” who use it will continue to take our chances with the same organization recognized all over the exact same world that scratches its head and asks “What is a natchey?”