Outsider's POV; testing

Originally Posted By: Anonymous
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



This is an objective observation that isn’t intended to be critical or to make anyone mad. So don’t kill the observer.


All the NACHI tests are too easy.


To make NACHI more credible and more viable, the tests should be more demanding. Entrance tests should be proctored.


All the questions that have obvious or humorous choices should be changed to have several challenging choices where only one is the best solution.


The online test could be a practice exam to help entrants pass the actual proctored test. It could also be used to as a renewal requirement annually.


But it’s just not difficult enough to verify the likelihood that the applicant is competent to be in the business.


Just my opinion,


Originally Posted By: rsummers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Chad When I took the NACHI exam I also had no problem passing it, but to easy? If it so easy why do you think 50% fail it. I’ve only been in this business 2 year and this is the 1st HI association that I’ve been involved with, are the other tests harder? If the test was not on line but in some other format would it then be acceptable to you. The only type of test I took before this was out of a book and I smoked that one also but that’s not because some one was looking over my shoulder. I guess that you could get some one to help you pass the test but what would be the point . You wouldn’t be in business long in my area if you didn’t know what you were doing. icon_surprised.gif


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



We could. In fact we have a contract ready to sign with the country’s largest computer testing service: LazerGrade.


Here are the issues though:

1. Our exam is open book anyway.
2. A person who cheats on our entrance exam (which we may be able to prevent by proctoring) can also cheat on the SOP, COE, sleep thru continuing education, and whole list of other things we can't proctor.
3. NACHI's entrance exam already has the highest failure ratio http://exams.nachi.org/stats.php second only to National Institute of Building Inspectors, the International Code Council, and the International Council of Building Officials which are all proctored and which we accept as alternatives to NACHI's Online Inspector Examination.
4. Most states that have licensing already require the passing of a proctored exam. Our members in those states have to pass a proctored exam already.
5. Because our industry changes so rapidly, members must pass NACHI's Online Exam yearly, something we want them to be able to do from the comfort home.
6. NACHI's Online Exam is not only an exam but a helpful self evaluation tool with many versions and a custom weakness color pie chart.
7. The Ethics Obstacle Course is not meant to be hard and useless, like a score-only exam is...It's meant to be easy and interactive so that it helps the inspector understand. A score-only exam usually doesn't tell you which ones you missed. There is no reason to proctor a non score-only exam.
8. The SOP Quiz is not meant to be hard either. It is meant to point out important issues to help inspectors realize things about themselves.
9. Passing our entrance exam is not the only requirement of membership. One must also sign an affidavit, abide by a COE, follow an SOP, fulfill continuing education, carry E&O if your state requires it, etc. Each of these requirements have many requirements within them as well.
10. We cannot make a series of hoops for members to jump through just for the sake of making it hard. Requiring members to do something as a condition of membership must have sound reasoning behind it. A requirement isn't minimized by ease of fulfillment.

Nick

PS All humorous answers on NACHI's Online Inspector Examination are additional possible choices, they are all incorrect choices, and there are no humorous questions. In other words their addition to the exam and the maintenance of the exam integrity are mutually exclusive events.


Originally Posted By: jburkeson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



chad fabry wrote:
This is an objective observation that isn't intended to be critical or to make anyone mad. So don't kill the observer.
All the NACHI tests are too easy.


This may be bit true, but I believe it is the very nature of how the test is administered, that creates the added perception of difficulty when taking the NHIE.

I have taken and passed both the NHIE and our NACHI exam, there is much pomp and circumstance associated with the NHIE. First and foremost you have to pay for the privilege, next there is the austere institutional coldness of the testing facility, finely there is knowledge that if one is unsuccessful, the whole process must be repeated.

All these things act on our mental awareness and create a heightened sense of importance that is not part-and-parcel of the conditions found when taking the NACHI test. Most people experience the NACHI exam in the comfort of their home or office knowing there is really no consequences for failure, because of the no-cost ability to retake the exam.

Chad, I would imagine those individuals who must go somewhere and experience the NACHI exam in a proctored environment would be less likely to agree with your observation and find the NACHI exam rather challenging.



Joe Burkeson.


--
Joseph Burkeson, RPI (Hooperette)

?Anyone who has proclaimed violence his method inexorably must choose lying as his principle.?
~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.





by

The American Educational Research Association,
American Psychological Association
and The National Council on Measurement in Education

Standard 14.17

The level of performance required for passing a credentialing test should depend on the knowledge and skills necessary for acceptable performance in the occupation or profession and should not be adjusted to regulate the number or proportion of persons passing the test.


Nick


Originally Posted By: Guest
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Joe and Nick,


I've also taken both tests. The NHIE was more difficult and that's not just because it was in a proctored environment. None of the multiple choice answers were "throw aways" and many questions had two viable answers with only one being the "best choice". To be fair, I'm not sure the NHIE is demanding enough either.
I've taken the NACHI test maybe 15 times and always score in the high 90's. It irks me that I get between one and four wrong each time and I don't know which ones they are.
I had my 16 year old son take the test he got an 84.
I took the test leaving the default choices where they were and got a 50 something.
Anyway, it was just food for thought...


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



50 something is a full 25 points below passing. NHIE passing score is 70. NACHI’s is 75. All throughout Standards for Educational and Psychological Testing aforementioned, exists the reminder that we can’t adjust the exam based on my son’s score or your score.


I just checked and the average score is 64,... 9 points away from passing.

http://exams.nachi.org/stats.php

We can make it harder by including stupid questions, offering ambiguous answer choices, making test takers drive to take it, or charging $, but making it harder shouldn't be the goal.

Nick


Originally Posted By: rpalac
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I’ve placed this post last night under general. I bring a copy foward to explain the impoact of not having our test proctored does. Maybe we can , as Chad pointed out keep the existing test as a practice exam or (1) renwal poit.


This is the Note I placed last night pertaining to Philly Licencing and our orginization:


I just spoke to the Philadelphia Licence Issuance office ( Paul Dinella )
215-686-2487
Her's the latest:

Yes The City Does Have A License Requirement Effective NOW:
3 items are required

1.) A fee of $300 for a 3 year licence
2.) A business Privilege License in the city of Philly $250 (I think)
3.) A minimum value and deductible of E & O Insurance
4.) A member of one of two recognized and accepted organizations.
ASHI or NAHI
( NACH- is not recognized because our exam is not proctored)
If you are a NACHI member, they will accept it if you get a proctored exam by a recognized third party.....EBHI)


If an inspector is doing an inspection the city will prosecute via fine, or hearing....they possibly will confiscate equipment including company vehicle to show enforcement for repeat violations.

I'm only relaying info as it was relayed.

I am currently taking IBC courses but they are not required for home inspectors as I was previously informed.


That's it folk's


Originally Posted By: Guest
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Nick,


If you charged for people to take the test and the test was in a proctored environment, that would eliminate the "gee I wonder if I should be home inspector" sector of the test takers. Then, you would be left with the "I know I want to be a HI, and I want to be good at it" sector. The average scores and pass rates would be dramtically different.
I have this topic up as a genuine point of interest and really don't want to irritate anyone.


Originally Posted By: jburkeson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



chad fabry wrote:
The NHIE was more difficult and that's not just because it was in a proctored environment. None of the multiple choice answers were "throw aways" and many questions had two viable answers with only one being the "best choice".


Yes you are certainly correct, a person would have less of a chance to use logic to pass the NHIE, memorization to some degree is required (personally, I used a practice test from ITA to study) and that to me is the real difference;

The NACHI exam tests logic (and still we have people who can't pass), where NHIE tests memory. I never really had to learn anything to pass the NHIE, merely memorize the test questions (since I never have to take it again), just like all those tests we took to get through school and which now no one remembers any of the answers. I believe, the NHIE is most likely a very good test if your goal was to limit the number of new Home Inspectors entering the profession.

Since most of us have some construction background, the NACHI exam is really a good indicator of weakness within a full body of related construction knowledge. Furthermore, memorization is counterproductive since the test is evergreen and must be taken each-and-every year.

BTW I too believe this discussion is very productive and good things can come out of it, hell, we're beginning to look & sound like TIJ... Scary!


Joe I-think-therefore-I-am Burkeson


--
Joseph Burkeson, RPI (Hooperette)

?Anyone who has proclaimed violence his method inexorably must choose lying as his principle.?
~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Originally Posted By: jedwards
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Removed.


Originally Posted By: Joe DiGiacomo
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Chad, I am 110% with you when you say it erks you to not know what you got wrong. I have been asking our Webmaster, Chris to help me find out what questions I got wrong. Took exam 3 times, got 80s and 90s but what did I get wrong?? This exam would serve all a lot better as a learning tool in addition to a requirement for joining NACHI. As I told Chris, if you can learn from the exam it becomes a great additional learning tool, other wise it’s more less a game to score on. Hell I thought I answered all the questions right, then I start to question more of my answers than I should have to. Please help with this.


Originally Posted By: rpalac
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



This has always been a bone of contention with myself as well.


Some peole read into questioons very deep and are poor test takers. Some just get nervous and don't think out of frustration.
But in all......if you don;t know what you answered incorrectly, you'll never learn. I fanything it can be counter productive making you look for logic in something you thought was wrong that wasn't.

Another seed of thought is that as I wrote, "the cirty of Philly doesn't honor NACHI as a bonfied org. duue to the test not being proctored" dosen't exactly feel to good. Hoew do other's view this? Matbe this would help make us stronger. The idea of being open with the chat board is a grat learning tool. The idea of our free set is also a grewat learning tool. I do believe that a proctored test will also give us a higher recognitioin. We can all use that.

Bob
( Just my opion, I do not say it to be mean, but rather just invoke some thought and see how others veiw this issue)


Originally Posted By: lungar
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Hi!


I don,t understand what your talking about, when you take the Nachi


test at the end they show you the pie with the wedges in it to show you


were you need improvement, so bone up in that area, take the test again


and see if you have done better. No charge-no driving study more help


yourself icon_smile.gif


Originally Posted By: rpalac
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



icon_redface.gif


But you don't know what the question was that you specifically had gotten wrong


Originally Posted By: lungar
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I don,t believe that there are to many tests that do. Maybe Nick can


find someway of doing it for the future tests icon_biggrin.gif


Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Hi to all,


I personally think that it would be a mistake to give out the wrong answers after our test, as has been previously stated at the end of the test you can view the "pie chart" which shows areas of general weakness, annd those are the areas that you need to put efforts into, giving away the answers to a limmited # of questions so that you can get 100% is pointless.

regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: rpalac
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



If your have a test that has 5 questions in 10 groups and get 2 wrong total you just earned an 92%.


The pie chart will tell you you need improvement in maybe two areas. That doesn't do any good if you don't know what you got wrong!

For instance, electrical is devided into power, grounding, appliances, general wiring, types of wire, transformation.....on, and on.....etc.

If you were asked about what the derived voltage of a wye conned tranformer with 200 Amp secondary at 240 to ground and answered it incorrectly. My review should be in that area or maybe my figuering was incorect. To say you need to review electrical would be a bit to broad.

I know that we all have strengths but we learn by reviewing our mistakes. Even if we had to look up answers, as long as I know which questions I got wrong.

Does that make sense....

Bob


Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
If you were asked about what the derived voltage of a wye conned tranformer with 200 Amp secondary at 240 to ground and answered it incorrectly.


If you were doing this, you would be far, far above what a home inspection is.

Neither the NACHI test or the NHIE are difficult. If you have studied, you pass them. If you've been and inspector for any length of time, and know what you are doing, you pass them. The only difference I saw at all was the hour and fifteen minute drive to the testing facility, the 64 degree dark room on a sunny 93 degree day, and the $195 I had to shell out to take the NHIE. Somehow I don't think I was a better inspector after passing the exam than I was the week before I took it, but the licensing board here sure does!

Rather than worrying about a proctored exam, which we would obviously have to pay for due to the cost of administration, lets all start working on these ignorant government officials who have never known anything about the home inspection industry until the day they vote on the bill, and then vote still not knowing. When government gets involved, invariably it gets screwed up.


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Robert:


Philly is no different than any other state government that licenses in that if they require a test, they invariably require a proctored test. NACHI members can pay to take an acceptable proctored test for Philly or Texas or IL just like ASHI members, NAHI members, and independents have to where licensing exists.

NACHI has considered, but never decided to make a truly proctored exam for licensing use, although we already possess all the pieces of the puzzle to do so.

In states that have licensing NACHI ends up getting all the best inspectors anyway. Licensing creates a new superseding list: Not the ASHI list, not the NACHI list, but the licensed list. This licensed list requires every inspector to do what that jurisdiction requires. Once licensed, legal, signed, sealed, delivered, and blessed by the state... inspectors figure something out pretty fast... they figure out what association gives them the most bang for their buck... NACHI.

Anywhere licensing exists, inspection associations that offer little in return for their membership dues... lose members fast. And they most often lose those members to NACHI. Veteran inspectors know success doesn't come by being licensed.

You get in at the bottom by first getting legal (licensed). You succeed at the top by becoming a NACHI member.

I've always felt NACHI should stand on its own 2 feet and entice members to join because we offer the most, not because we offer a $200 bill to take a test to get legal. Getting legal is what all inspectors have to do anyway. Being licensed is like being up to code, if you did anything less, it would be illegal. NACHI is on the other end of the spectrum.

NACHI mimics the National Association of REALTORs (I've been one for about 13 years). I never had to take an exam to become a REALTOR. I took an exam years ago to get licensed. I, and 1/2 of all licensed agents, become REALTORs out of choice.

Not to pick on Newbies or anything, but I will say: We don't want to attract Newbies trying to go into the business and get licensed. We want to attract licensed (where licensing exists) veterans who want to be the best. Opposite end of the spectrum.

Nick