Pennsylvania Senate Bill No. 928

Originally Posted By: jremas
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Philly was accepting Full ASHI members and NAHI CRIs, because they were under the assumption that they both passed the NHIE. This is not true because NAHI also has their own CRI test although they accept the NHIE. Philly did not know that. NACHI was not on the accepted list but now it is AS LONG AS you pass the NHIE too. Many inspectors from ASHI and NAHI did already get in who were not full members because Philly did not really understand the whole thing.


PA law is going to mimick the Philly law and if NACHI does not have a continuing education program with a list of accepted CEUs and not the free picture bullcrap we are in trouble. It is too late to get our exam accepted for the Philly law and I am sure it won't happen in PA either.

Because of this I will be joining either ASHI or NAHI tomorrow. I have more than enough inspections and already passed the NHIE so I can be a full ASHI member or a NAHI CRI. I will decide tomorrow who will get my check. I cannot risk my business by belonging to one organization that needs to be better organized. I will keep the NACHI membership because I think you get the most bang for your buck here. It's just too risky in PA.

When the licensing thing goes into effect there should be NO association requirement.


--


Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598

Originally Posted By: khamilton
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Jeff, I know you are right at the heart of the question.


I like what Joe F. said...if there is no law now and we as an organization can have some impact on how it is drawn up, why shouldn't we?

With all due respect to those of you who have played the game and gotten your 100 inspections so that you qualify...

My basic problem, I guess, is with the entire requirement. I can think of no other profession, except for physicians having to work as interns, that requires "ride-alongs" in order to qualify. You pass an exam (basically) and you're in. You pass the Bar and your a lawyer. You take a test and you're a REA. You take a test and you're a builder. You take a test (election) and you're an elected politician...

Heck, if you pass a test you are a Building Inspector.

Not to say that the experience gained in the ride-along program isn't valuable and in the long run make you a better inspector, but it could be said that if after passing the Bar exam, a lawyer had to participate in 250 trials before hanging out his shingle wouldn't make him a better asset for his/her clients either, but that isn't done. You pass the qualifying exam, and you're in.

I think we can agree that the theory behind the "mentoring" concept was PURELY an revenue-generating tool used by the "established" HI assoc's, loosely disguised as a QA program.

At the time it was to their benefit, financially and from a control aspect, to make the profession difficult to get into.

Given the history behind the ride-along program as a money-maker, I sure don't see why we have to proliferate it and legitimize it now by being ok with it becoming the law of the State. Saying that "ASHI has it at 250, and the law will require only 100 and that's a good deal" is absurd.

That's like saying a tax increase of only 75% when a 100% increase was planned is a good thing!!!

I'm taking this personally because I am your canary in the cage. Some of you older (longer in the profession) guys may not care. You're already in the "Club". This proposed legislation is hitting me directly between the eyes. It virtually slams the door on new inspectors getting into the profession. It is not necessary and it is not fair. Inspecting a house is not rocket science. The qualification exam (and the individual's insurability) should be the determining factor, as it is in SO MANY other professions. And one certainly at least ought to receive credit for work in a related field. Like I said, if your township was in need of a Code Enforcement Officer, you could take a test today and start tomorrow.

The 100 ride along requirement is the vestage of a dying association put in place by them to keep new people out. We should not be "ok" with it just because that's the way it's always been. And an "injustice" cut by 60% is STILL an injustice.

Since this is the only HI professional association home-based in PA (and one of the reasons I joined) I would expect this organization to be raising holy hell from the highest hilltop over this.

I guess we'll see.

Kip


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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Jeff, you are right about continuing ed being the heart of this thing for the future but ASHI & NAHI… or for that matter NACHI are not schools. You cannot get your continuing ed (at least not what will be required in PA) by joining any of them.


Building Specs out of VA said they are already coming to PA to operate a program once we find out what continuing ed will be required. We'll have 10 schools providing continuing ed in PA. NACHI isn't going to compete with them. We aren't a school.

Gerry will post the list of schools, and there will be many that we approve for continuing education but I assure you... the state will not be giving you any continuing education points for joining an association. Join them all if you like though.

Nick

PS. I am going to guess that a license will cost $300. Not decided yet.


Originally Posted By: rwills
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Quote:
If you have to have a law... this is the one to have. I don't see anything unfair about it (association speaking).

What more could they have done for us? Put in a statement like "You will notice that this law does not mention ASHI?"

What more do you want?


Nick, What more could they have done for us? Will become,"What more could they have done to us?". Let's face the fact that this Bill was lobbied for! Whoever it was ![eusa_think.gif](upload://lNFeGuTetUAtwNVgUSOuUzgrGGK.gif) , made sure the Board shall have the power and duty to: Establish and maintain a list of Nat'l HI Assoc's as APPROVED by the board as meeting the requirements of the chapter, Also. includes a provision that if a Nat'l HI Assoc raises it's requirements then state shall automatically equal those standards. You cannot sit there and tell me that this is not ASHI and PHIC who failed last year to attack us directly has suceeded by using the "Branding Money" to attain their goals at state level! How about a gentlemens bet? Loser buys lunch or something! My guess:When this Board goes into effect, NACHI will NOT be included in their HI list. We'll be standing there like a deer in headlights saying "Can you believe this?" Are you On? Excuse me, I have to go prepare my "Told you so" speech!


--
Bob Wills - MAB Chairman
BW Inspection Services
Warminster, Pa.
http://www.bwinspections.com

Originally Posted By: tgardner
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Kip,


Try getting a PE without experience ( after passing the exam!)

Tim Gardner


Originally Posted By: wpedley
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Maybe I’m missing something here. Can anyone tell me why NACHI


is not being recognized like the other associations?Don't answer unless

you have CONCRETE evidence to back you up.I personally have always

been a good problem solver if I know what the REAL problem is.


--
BPedley
Inspecting for the unexpected

Originally Posted By: khamilton
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Timothy, I have a friend who graduated from Penn State last fall with a Masters in Engineering and she sat almost immediately for her PE boards.


Kip


Originally Posted By: khamilton
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OK, I just sent the following to my state representative in Harrisburg:


***************
Dear Mr. Maitland,

Thank you for taking the time to read this. I wanted to speak with you in person, but since the Legislature is currently in session, I was afraid of the delay. After you are up to speed on the subject, I would be happy to talk with you, if you wish.

As you know, there has never been a governing body overseeing the Home Inspection industry in PA. The current Senate Bill #928 addresses this issue:

<http://www2.legis.state.pa.us/wu01/li/bi/bt/2003/0/sb0928p1209.pdf>

Up until the last 2-3 years, the two main Home Inspection professional associations, ASHI (American Society of Home Inspectors) and NAHI (National Association of Home Inspectors) have enjoyed a bit of a monopoly on the home inspection (HI) industry. ASHI in particular has become the 800 lb gorilla of the group, spending a great deal of time and money lobbying to arrogantly establish themselves as the definitive authority on the subject of HI.

Since they were the main game in town, they were able to establish HI ?doctrine? and guidelines around the country. Because of this effort in promoting themselves as the HI ?experts?, many locales simply adopted ASHI?s standards outright, or used them as a basis for developing their own. In fact, many of the proposed provisions in Bill 928 are, not-surprisingly, similar to ASHI?s standards which were drawn up over the years to: A) Make it extremely difficult for new inspectors to start a new business and B) to generate income for the association.

For example, for someone attempting to become certified in one of these organizations there are fees to study for the test, fees to apply to take the test, and fees to take the test. Then once the test is passed, the ?candidate? still is not authorized to perform HI until participating in the association's ?mentoring? program, where the candidate must pay additional fees to accompany a ?full? member on 250 field inspections in order to be considered qualified to perform HI himself. Then there are pretty steep annual fees that must be paid to continue membership, not to mention the fees paid for the required continuing education required each year.

The entire process from applicant to ?full? member generates, literally, thousands of dollars for the association.

Currently, PA is considering Bill 928 that contains a number of qualifying provisions that must be followed for one to be registered (licensed) in PA. There is one in particular, which is an offshoot of the ASHI requirement, that I, personally, have a problem with.

Using myself as an example; I am in the process of starting a HI business in Carroll Valley. I am almost 50 years old. I started when I was 13 -14 years old working in my dad?s construction company. I was a licensed contractor in Maryland for many years. When it comes to houses, there isn?t much that I don?t know. I have the experience, the knowledge and the desire to make a great home inspector, yet if 928 is passed as written, I will just not be able to obtain the 100 ?ride-alongs? in order to qualify to start my part-time business.

The following is part of something I wrote this morning on the NACHI (National Association of Certified Home Inspectors) web forum. This is the professional organization that I belong to (<http://www.nachi.org/>):

?My basic problem, I guess, is with the entire requirement to get 100 ride-alongs. I can think of no other profession, except for physicians having to work as interns, that requires "ride-alongs" in order to qualify. You pass an exam (basically) and you're in. You pass the Bar and you?re a lawyer. You take a test and you're a Real Estate Agent. You take a test and you're a builder. You take a test and you?re a Professional Engineer. You take a test (election) and you're an elected politician...

Heck, if you pass a test, you are a Building Inspector.

Not to say that the experience gained in the ride-along program isn't valuable and in the long run might make the individual a better inspector, but it could be said that if after passing the Bar exam, a lawyer had to participate in 250 trials before hanging out his shingle wouldn't make him a better asset for his/her clients either, but that isn't done. You pass the qualifying exam, and you're in.

I think we can agree that the theory behind the "mentoring" concept was PURELY a revenue-generating tool used by the "established" HI associations (ASHI/NAHI) loosely disguised as a QA program.

At the time it was to their benefit, financially and from a control aspect, to make the profession difficult to get into.

Given the history behind the ride-along program as a moneymaker for the associations and an obstacle for the candidate, I sure don't see why we have to proliferate it and legitimize it now by being ok with it?s becoming the law of the State. Saying that "ASHI currently has a 250 ride-along requirement, and the law will require only 100 and that's a good deal" is absurd.

That's like saying a tax increase of only 75% when a 100% increase was planned is a good thing!!!

I'm taking this personally because I am your canary in the cage. Some of you older (longer in the profession) guys may not care. You're already in the "Club". This proposed legislation is hitting me directly between the eyes. It virtually slams the door on new inspectors getting into the profession. It is not necessary and it is not fair. Inspecting a house is not rocket science.

The qualification exam (and the individual's insurability) should be the determining factors for entrance into the profession, as it is in SO MANY other professions. And one certainly at least ought to receive credit for work in a related field. Like I said, if your township was in need of a Code Enforcement Officer, you could take a test today and start to work tomorrow.

The 100 ride along requirement is the vestige of a dying association put in place by them to keep new people out. We should not be "ok" with it just because that's the way it's always been. And an "injustice" cut by 60% is STILL an injustice.?


Mr. Maitland, I agree that it is important to protect the public from unqualified individuals passing themselves off as Home Inspectors. I also agree that in the past when, lacking any state-wide uniform standards for participating in the business of HI, that perhaps it made some sense to have a ?candidate? inspector demonstrate his/her proficiency in the field for X number of inspections (certainly not 250!).

But I think now that the State is stepping in to lay down some regulations and set some standards that A) An applicant should be given credit for work in related fields but (more importantly) B) The test itself should be stringent enough so that if one passes it, then they have demonstrated sufficient knowledge to work as a home inspector in PA and should be allowed to pay the registration fee and go to work.

Thank you very much for your time an attention. Is there anyone else you could suggest that I contact in regard to this issue?

Kip Hamilton
Valley View Home Inspections
642-9239
<www.ValleyViewHomeInspections.com>


Originally Posted By: khamilton
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Just got this back:


**************

Dear Mr. Hamilton:

Thanks for the email(s) you sent on this issue. I appreciate your point of view and will forward your comments, if you approve, to both the House Consumer Affairs and House Professional Licensure Committees. SB 928 was introduced in the Senate in early October and is in the Senate committee that combines the functions of the two house committees. I also recommend you contact Senator Terry Punt through his legislative aide Anne Stine at astine@pasen.gov.

The Senate bill has seen no action, but I will be on the lookout for it and will see that your concerns are addressed should the bill reach the House.

If you hear anything about plans for the bill to be voted on in the Senate, let me know.

Thanks again, and keep me posted.

Sincerely,

Steve Maitland
State Representative


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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I think some of you guys see things that aren’t there including my friend Joe Farsetta and especially Jeff Remas. You’re becoming a little paranoid.


ASHI & NAHI lobbied hard in PA. They even set up a Coalition in PA. They worked for many years in PA. They spent a lot of money in PA.

What are the results of all their efforts?

1. An existing home inspection law that makes NO mention of ASHI or NAHI and in fact helps NACHI by forcing home inspectors BY LAW to join NACHI if they have between 100 and 249 inspections under their belt.

2. A pending licensing bill that makes NO mention of ASHI or NAHI and in fact helps NACHI by forcing home inspectors BY LAW to join NACHI if they have between 100 and 249 inspections under their belt.

With results like this I say to ASHI & NAHI... Keep up the good work!

Nick

PS My comments above do not address the merits of the current law or pending bill, but only their association bias in favor of NACHI. And you are correct that that scum bag coalition PHIC only exists to enslave newbies , steal their money, and line Jack Miline's pocket. Now part of Jeff Remas" ASHI dues go to support the fleecing of inspectors. Resist!


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Hmmm…PARANOID! icon_biggrin.gif


Been having a lot of that here lately!

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: jremas
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



deleted by NACHI






Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598

Originally Posted By: khamilton
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



" Who the heck does everyone think they’re talking about here? Certainly not us!


Kip


Originally Posted By: rwills
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
Includes a provision that if a national home inspection association raises its requirements, then the state law automatically equals those standards.

JoeH. posted a link to this statement, I posted a message regarding this statement. Face it! It's being ignored. The wait and let's see what happens approach. Why do today what you can put off till tomorrow! Once it's realized we're the target of this pending action! watch how damn fast the bar gets raised then!


--
Bob Wills - MAB Chairman
BW Inspection Services
Warminster, Pa.
http://www.bwinspections.com

Originally Posted By: jhagarty
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Robert W:


The issue is not being ignored.

The issue is currently being researched and read with lines of communication being opened.


--
Joseph Hagarty

HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.

Originally Posted By: awong
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



kpapp wrote:
If you dont have time to do it right the first time, When will you have the time to go back and fix it?


Let us work as a team but not with emotion.


--
Andy Wong
Singapore Chapter
www.singapore.nachi.org

Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Jeff R,


Out of curiosity, who did you perform your 100 "directly supervised" ride alongs with?

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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I have a question for those inspector in PA. This law will in effect leave it up to the licensing board to approve the exam, meaning they may not approve the NACHI online exam.


Are you in favor of using the NAHI or the ASHI (NHIE) exam or do you think we should make our own proctored exam?

All opinions are welcome, even yours Jeff! ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: kpapp
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Joe, Why should they get all the credit and the pwr to do what they want…I think NACHI should be on that list also…



_______________________________________


If you dont have time to do it right the first time, When will you have the time to go back and fix it?

Originally Posted By: jremas
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Hey Myers, that was my “beef”, we (NACHI) had no idea that this bill, which is an ammendment to Act 114 was even introduced back in October of 2003. We just found out about it in the first week of February.


We should be keeping our finger on pulse of legislation, not trying to change it when it it too late. If they did not put it on hold because of my email campaign then it probably would have passed right through and the board would have been stacked by non-NACHI folks who would not approve our organization or testing. Who knows if this will still happen??

Personally I don't like our current exam for several reasons that everyone already knows and the reasons are posted elsewhere so I'm not going to waste my time going over them. Gerry B along with myself are working on a new improved version. The bottom line is that the test needs to be proctored.

Let's see what happens with SB928..........


--


Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598