Originally Posted By: srowe This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
bad or just the certain manufacturers and specific time periods?
I have come across two homes in the last 3 weeks that have newer poly. The one was a re-plumb (completed about 6 weeks ago) and the other is 1996. The 96 house has poly at the faucet and toilet supply lines (1/4 inch).
I have been to several websites and it does not seem to apply to the circumstances that I have come across.
Do I just note it...and make reference that there has been class action suit, and buyer should do their homework (and/or call plumber)?
Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
If you are looking at the grey Polybutylene, there are two kinds. The kind that has broken, and the kind that will. For true Polybutylene, I put this information in my report. It is a little outdated, but gets the point across.
Polybutylene water lines have had a history of problems. There were no leaks found in the visible portions of the Polybutylene plumbing system at the time of the inspection. Due to finished walls and ceilings, the entire Polybutylene plumbing system was not visible. Hidden defects or leaks not fully visible at the time of the inspection may appear. A qualified licensed plumber familiar with Polybutylene plumbing should be contacted should any leaks or problems occur. For additional information, contact the Consumer Plumbing Recovery Center at 1-800-356-3496, or on the web at www.kinsella.com/polybutylene.
If it was installed in the last few weeks, you were probably looking at Pex plumbing in a manablock setup. So Far, there aren't any problems with this installation. Somewhere around here I have information on it. When I find it I will email it to you.
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Polybutylene is pretty obvious. Like Blaine said, it’s grey and usually marked “POLYBUTYLENE,” and should always be written up as a potential problem.
My disclaimer is a bit shorter but to the same point - "Polybutylene plastic piping systems have experienced documented problems. Contact the manufacturer or an expert for further information and evaluations."
There have been great improvements to the fittings which were the major problem with the system, but overall, it's a flawed system.
Newer plastic piping systems, such as Aquapex, haven't withstood the true test of time (yet), but are considered quite adequate by plumbers I've spoken with.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Poly started out with acetal fittings and aluminum crimp rings.
The first problem with poly (PB) was the failure of the aluminum crimp rings breaking and expanding, allowing leakage. So the aluminum crimp rings were replaced with copper crimp rings.
The next problem with poly was the failure of the acetal fittings breaking and leaking. So the acetal fittings were replaced with copper fittings.
The next problem was with some failures of the poly piping itself.
Poly was eventually replaced with PEX, a cross-linked compound purported to be much better.
There are common elements with PEX systems and poly systems, they both use plastic (different types of plastic, but still plastic) pipe pushed over insert fittings with crimp rings around them. PEX systems use copper fittings and (if I remember correctly) stainless steel crimp rings.
There has been some reported problem with the SS crimp rings and leakage at the fittings.
Only time will tell how PEX performs over the long haul.
Originally Posted By: rmello This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
srowe wrote:
Is all poly bad or just the certain manufacturers and specific time periods?
I have come across two homes in the last 3 weeks that have newer poly. The one was a re-plumb (completed about 6 weeks ago) and the other is 1996. The 96 house has poly at the faucet and toilet supply lines (1/4 inch).
I have been to several websites and it does not seem to apply to the circumstances that I have come across.
Do I just note it...and make reference that there has been class action suit, and buyer should do their homework (and/or call plumber)?
Thanks
i had that crap in my mobile, leaks every where, don't touch it . IT will break.turn water off & run ! the law suit for this is a joke it should be replaced, murphys law applys to this one
Originally Posted By: dbowers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I might mention that its highly unlikely you saw a new house (built within the past 2-3 years with polybutylene main piping. I don’t remember the exact changeover, but the reason is the building codes took it off the approved plumbing supply material list a few years ago. It may have been the IRC 2000, but I can’t remember for sure.
I modified an Erby post over at IN for my report...
Quote:
Investigate Further: You need to be aware that the home has been plumbed with Polybutylene water lines. No obvious visual problems or leaks were observed with this installation. Polybutylene lines are susceptible to leakage along with sudden splitting and have been involved in litigation and class action lawsuits. These materials may deteriorate from the inside out. Polybutylene systems with metal (usually aluminum or copper) fittings do not fail as often as polybutylene systems with plastic fittings. This home has both. There is some disagreement on whether polybutylene or its fittings are a problem when properly installed. While it is not an automatic recommendation, replacement of the material (with copper or CPVC) should be considered. I suspect that most of the units in this complex were plumbed in a similar fashion, and I recommend that you inquire whether there is any history of plumbing failures in other units or replacement costs. Further information can be found on the internet at http://www.polybutylene.com or http://www.pbpipe.com. Should failure occur, assistance may be available from the manufacturers via the Consumer Plumbing Recovery Center, (800) 876-4698. Call them to confirm this home's eligibility in the event of a leak.
Comments? I know it's not perfect.
-- Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com
Originally Posted By: rmoore This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Jerry…
Do you have a source of info for installation, support requirements, etc for this stuff? I can't find anything. UPC doesn't even mention it (probably washed their hands of it). Apparently, it has not failed in this configuration for the last 32 years, but I will pass your concerns on to my client.
BTW...I have since noticed that three of the clips holding the piping from the manifold are broken. Another good reason to have them call a plumber in. One addendum coming up!
Thanks,
-- Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com
Originally Posted By: Dan Weber This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
What ever happened to “Neat and Workman Like” I don’t think the bends in the pipe are within code specs. looks to me that if there is any “hammering” in those pipes eventually they will start cracking. Also the bends are putting stress on the fittings which eventually will start leaking. They should have used 90 deg elbows or sweeps in this application. What about supporting distances? Those pipes are not supported properly.
Just my 2 cents worth!
-- Dan Weber
SSG, US Army
Quality Assurance Inspector
Engineers Lead the Way!
Manabloc Installation Instructions (Unfortunately, I did not save the previous ones which referred to PB instead of PEX, these were revised PB was replaced with PEX. Otherwise, same requirements still apply. Just one of those things where you save a link, but the other person changes the content on the link. Would be nice to have saved the PB one.)
http://161.58.169.127/articles/Vanguard_Mabloc_installation_instructions/Manabloc_Installation_Instructions.pdf
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
As a ‘system’, not much better. As the ‘piping’ part of the system, don’t know, PB was around for a while before it failed. PEX? Only time will tell.
The same requirements for the installation apply, as you can see from the installation instructions, and I've already heard of crimp band failures and leaks in PEX.
Originally Posted By: Kevin McMahon This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Yep…you’re right…thanks…I was trying to remember a detail I saw, and just actually looked it up and says minimum radius=12xD for PB…I knew 12 was in there somewhere!
Originally Posted By: rmoewe This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I just inspected my first home with what I beleive is pex. It is a plastic tubing with crimp clamps at the joints. It is also red for hot and blue for the cold. Does anyone know if this is correct? Help would be appreciated. I told the client that it was a new type of plumbing material, one that was close to pb. I also told them about pb and the problems with it. I told them that time will tell; if it will stand-up. anyone have the web-site for this material. I looked it up and did not find the same material on the pex web-site. Thanks, Rick
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Rick
I do not know if this will help or hurt. Habitat for Humanity is putting this in homes now. They try to give the homeowners a good product and since they hold the paper on the property, I do not think that they would want a sub-standard product in their homes.
