Structural Engineer?

Originally Posted By: hgordon
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Any suggestions?


![](upload://357DBURsYvqBAzOH0oH0Oo8tUhW.jpeg)


Originally Posted By: dbush
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I would recommend a framer. There are no indications that what is there, while improper, is sagging or not supporting the weight, therefore I don’t believe a SE would be necessary, however I would recommend a framer to come in and mount a more permanent solution.



Dave Bush


MAB Member


"LIFE'S TOUGH, WEAR A HELMET"

Originally Posted By: hgordon
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Not sure about your neck of the woods…but down here if you mess with the roof you have to follow a structural engineers drawing.


Most good roffing co's here have SE on staff.


Originally Posted By: jwortham
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I am still trying to figure out what I am seeing.


Is this supposed to be acting as a brace to support the roof?


Originally Posted By: hgordon
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Jeff this is really one of those…you gotta see it to try to figure out.


That was only one of the braces found.

There were also other 2x4's nailed to the trusses at diffrent places and simply resting on the ceiling sheetrock!


Originally Posted By: jwortham
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Last night at the Great Lakes NACHI meeting Nick said one out of every 50 clients is crazy.


This must have been number 50 eh?


Originally Posted By: dbowers
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Harvey - Where most of us come from this wouldn’t be an engineer call. No you don’t need an engineer to repair roof structure anywhere in Kansas or Missouri I know - unless you’re planning on altering pre-engineered trusses.


Originally Posted By: rcloyd
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Harvey:


There are no trusses in the photo. I do not see a problem. If the short knee wall like brace bears on a load bearing wall beneath the ceiling there shouldn't be a problem.

Regards,


--
Russell G. Cloyd
Intra-Spec Home Inspections
& Code Consulting, LLC
859-586-4591
www.intra-spechomeinspections.com

Originally Posted By: Randy Mayo
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Harvey


As a structural engineer and home inspector the brace looks like an after thought at best. First I would look at the rafter spans to see if they were overloaded. I would bet they are or the brace would not have been added. Second you have to follow the load path down to the ground. For example the brace supports the rafter. Follow the brace to see what is supporting it. If it is a partition wall then follow the wall down to the floor joist, and so forth until you reach the footing. Check each link in the load path for problems.

9 out of 10 Rafter-Joists systems I have looked at are under designed. Usually the rafters are overspanned, have no braces, are under braced or are braced improperly. These roofs when viewed from the outside are usually sagged or have several unusual lumps and bumps.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Hey Randy … glad to see another structural engineer like myself check in on the board … welcome … icon_wink.gif


That roof framing brace/support does look a little like an afterthought or fix, and I would also be concerned with what is supporting it. The posts might just be scabbed to the side of the ceiling joists, but it's hard to tell and there looks like some space between the post and joist.

Guys ... be careful with the evaluations and recommendations for follow ups, unless it is clearly a simple issue or needed repair. Also, State laws and most building codes do not allow contractors to perform performance evaluations or designs, particularly for structural issues (and not just trusses for roof framing). Some of the other trades with master licenses have grey areas on simple residential evaluations, but not with structures.

There is a reason that structure issues is one of the highest liability areas for an HI. I think part of that has to do with rifts between the two practices caused by past battles with PE's on residential inspections possibly being an engineering evaluation ... but thats not really the case any more as long as ya avoid crossing that "evaluation line in the sand". Look at say the Texas HI regulations if your state doesn't have licensing laws that define that. But it still seems like HI's are reluctant to defer to PE's for evaluations in general.

Just my 2 nickles as an engineer also (duck) ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Looks like an older house with hand framed (not trusses) rafters.


That appears to be an intermediate support for the rafters, to reduce their span and allow smaller lumber work.

Was that cross piece plywood, 1X, or 2X?

I've seen many like that in older houses and there have been no problems. I've also seen some which were. What is UNDER that support? Hopefully, a load bearing wall. If that is out over clear space under (such as a living area) with no load bearing wall, that would be a problem too, unless the ceiling joists were upsized a couple of sizes to compensate for it.

Just not enough info to be able to know.

If you found much else with the structure, refer it to a structural engineer 'have structural engineer design appropriate repairs for ... , and while they are on-site for that, also have them check the attic rafters and their bracing. That way, you called the SE there for something else, and 'oh, by the way, check this while you are here'. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: rmoore
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I called for a structural engineer on this one. 3;12 roof, about 40’ of “purloin” pieces nailed to alternate sides of 2 by 4 “rails” (?) supported in only two places midway by 2 by 4s. I think you can see the sag in the second photo. I was surprised it wasn’t worse.


[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/more/DSCN0669s.JPG ]
[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/more/DSCN0670s.JPG ]


--
Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com

Originally Posted By: dbowers
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Randy -


There used to be a code inspector in the Rolla, Missouri area that the builders called "Mad-Dog Mayo". I believe I met him once and he was a REAL OLDER guy, and I would think he would be in his early 90's if he was alive today. Any relation??

Dan Bowers


Originally Posted By: dbowers
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Acoustical, Aerospace, CAD Design & Drafting, Chemical, Computer Software Design, Electronics, Energy Management, Farm Agricultural, Marine, Optical Science, Petroleum , Pharmaceutical, Pollution, Railroad, Telecommunication, Tool Design, Traffic & Transportation, and Waste Water Management & Treatment.

Many times I get called by FHA, a lender or an attorney to review a case where an engineer has done a report or designed a repair and it turns out they were probably good guys and knowledgeable in whatever their speciality was - BUT this ain't it and they are not trained or competent in the structural end of engineering.

I'm sure not a structural engineer, BUT I know which ones are good and which ones are not. In many areas you'll find engineer referrals to be just like HI referrals (the engineer referred by the realtor will often be the one that don't make waves - not the most thorough one).

Find out who the REAL structural engineers in your area are and use them.


Originally Posted By: Randy Mayo
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Dan


On your first question, I am not Mad Dog Mayo.

Just a comment on structural engineers. Engineers including myself are just like doctors, lawyers, carpenters, plumbers and any other profession. They have their share of really good ones and really bad ones and everything in between.

An old professor said it best when he told me a college degree only proves your are teachable and a PE license only proves you could pass the test.

Best advice is ask for references, ask to see if they have a current PE license for the state in which you live, ask about other inspections similiar to yours and make sure all engineering reports are stamped.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Very well said Dan.


I also agree that model codes like the IRC have gotten very prescriptive and easier for a layperson to understand. But with very few exceptions (e.g. states like CA, or very small accessory structures), state/local laws do not allow anyone other than a building official or design professional to apply those codes to structures. Lack of enforcement in some areas doesn't change that.

I still think the IRC is an excellent guide for an HI (although a little dry reading), and I highly recommend the CodeCheck books ... and the basic CodeCheck is required for one of the HI classes I teach. They still have to be used carefully since just looking something up in a span table is only part of the picture, and they are limited in scope. It wouldn't apply to the situation in the original post.

Randy ... sometimes I like to joke that being a PE is a certification by the state that I do indeed know enough to be really dangerous ... ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif) ... and it's an identifying system for lawyers so they know who to sue ...


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: dbowers
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an engineer on the Kansas side of the state line was about 8-9 years ago. I don’t remember the exact complaint but the state engineering board sent us a letter stating that in Kansas “one & two family dwellings were exempted from the states architectural and engineering law” so what ever it was it was not covered by the engineering laws, etc, etc.


I hear how things are with codes, engineering, building requirements in areas like California, New York, Chicago, etc and I can only dream.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Dan … your state is one of the few that has not adopted the IRC statewide … it is on a local basis for now. But I understand that it will become a statewide code soon … then those exemptions are gone, as in most of the other states now. Enforcement then becomes the issue.


I think we can say that it seems we both agree the IRC/CodeCheck is a really good reference/guide for HI's. They just have to be careful with applying that ... regardless of any state laws. That can be a very slippery slope, and a high liability area for the average inspector.

Just my 2 nickles.

P.S. Are you an HI educator also? Seems like you have a good head on your shoulders and have also been doing this for a while.


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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“Any suggestions?”


Harvey

Recommend a PE or structure engineer examine.

This is a Band-Aid fix.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: dbowers
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Robert -


I started doing HI's part time in 1978 while working full time as a project manager for National Homes Corp. Went full time as a HI in 1984.

Grew up in the family construction business (heavy equipment and concrete). They build highways, streets, shopping centers, apartments and housing developments. Started college with an Associates Degree in Construction Management - then switched to Mechanical Engineering (HVAC). I spent 4 years as a Factory Rep for Freidrich teaching HVAC
to service people, etc. Spent 2 years with Friday's as a construction manager - then moved to National Homes Corp. in Field Construction Supervision of single family homes.

in 1984 when I decided to get into HI full-time, I flew from St. Louis to a week long HI school outside DC - taught by John Cox (now deceased).

Because there was really nothing much else out there back then other than CREIA in California - I joined ASHI. They had 374 members and 664 others (they weren't called candidates then, and it took 1,000 fee paid inspections, 2 tests, your reports verified by some guy in Montana, and a PEER Review (on-site inspection and interview) in front of several other existing HI's. I was old number #1038.

I've been an education junkie for years - for the past 8-9 years I've gone to over 100 hours of CE courses a year in varied subjects.

I've been teaching locally (HI's, State Appraisers, construction related seminars at local colleges and at national HI seminars for different groups since 1993). I belong to NACHI, ASHI, NAHI, ICC, the HBA, EDI, etc.

I enjoy what I do and I get different things out of different associations I belong to. I like to try and help new inspectors from making the same mistakes I see being made day after day.

Your turn

Dan