Structural questions concerning header, Beam, & Post

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#1

Originally Posted By: kleonard
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I inspected a 2800 sq ft, 2 story, Victorian style home yesterday that was built in 1976. I have a couple issues I would like to inquire about.


1) When inspecting the structure in the basement, the home was built without a header. in other words, if you were to stick your head between the floor joists and look fwrd what you see is the inside of the exterior bricks. I have never seen this type of construction before.

2) Another concern I have is, still in the basement, the beam consists of "2ea" 2x4s stacked on top of each other, running the length of the basement, with one door frame to enter the other half of the basement. The posts consist of a series of 2x4s resembling framing with 12" spans and a 2x4 soleplate attached on the bottom. a couple of the 2x4s were bowed and a couple were missing. the rest were very stiff.

when upstairs on the first floor, the floor seems to be very sound and stable with no creaking or noticeable bounce

Any coments or feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Kevin Leonard www.the-home-inspection-company.com[/url]

#2

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Kevin,


It sounds like this place should not be standing any more. It is hard to get a grasp of what you are saying without seeing a picture or drawing.

I sure hoped you called for further evaluation by an engineer.

Joe Myers

#3

Originally Posted By: kleonard
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Hi Joe,


I am going to try and attach a couple pictures for clarification.


The first picture is of the missing header.


![](upload://xFBHvjWHgfOfrniSjIG8RWdcRtW.jpeg)


The second picture is of one of the posts. As I said they have 2ea 2x4s
stacked on top of one another that is acting as a beam at the top. Then they have 2x4s with a 12" center to center, that they are using as posts. So if you look at it it looks like standard wall framing having a 12" span. For the base they have, what I am calling for lack of a better term, a sill plate. See the pic. My other pictures did'nt come out clear enough thats why I only have this one that is clearly visible. disregard the electrical problem, which is why I snapped this shot to begin with.




Also I am for certain recommending a structural engineer.

Thanks so much for the reply. I really appreciate it.

Kevin www.the-home-inspection-company.com

#4

Originally Posted By: rking
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Kevin,


At first glance I thought maybe the joists were embedded in the brick and that it was an old fashioned double or triple wythe brick house. But it certainly looks as if the joists indeed stop at the brick.
That is bad because there is no provision to keep those joists from twisting, or worst case falling over in effect losing all support in that area and possibly causing a dominoe effect on the adjoining joists.

In the second picture, other than the electrical problem, it appears as though the framing material is in direct contact with the concrete. that is also a no-no because the wood will wick all of the moisture out of the concrete and gradually decay to the point of being no good for anything let alone be a part of a structural network.

--
Muskoka Home Inspections
"Wisdom is the Anticipation of the Consequences"
Steering Committee Member At Large

#5

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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I agree with RK that the joists need lateral support at the ends to keep them from falling over (it’s also required by the IRC). This can be either by embedding the joists in masonry, installing a header/rim-joist, or installing “blocking” which are pieces of wood installed between and perpendicular to the joists at the ends.


Also, any framing deeper that 12" needs lateral support (blocking or metal bridging) spaced a maximum of 8' apart per the IRC.

On the "header" you described, is it possible that that was a double top plate of a bearing wall, with the 2x4@12 as the studs. The sheetrock cover usually on these walls doesn't do that much, but may be needed to keep the studs from moving sideways if the load is heavy. hard to tell from you description.

Sounds like a good call to have an engineer take a look at it ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

#6

Originally Posted By: kleonard
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My little 3 bedroom house is contructed with a steel I-beam with steel posts embedded in concrete. This large 5 bedroom 4 bath home/small palace is using 2ea 2x4s stacked on top of one another, instead of an steel I-beam, and 2x4@12 instead of steel posts, as the backbone for the whole structure.


I hope this gives you a clearer picture of the situation.

Next time I will take more pictures for more easier better clarification.

Thanks for all your comments everyone,

I really appreciate them.

Kevin Leonard

#7

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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I don’t know about a header, but it looks like the floor system is missing a rim joist, assuming the joist ends aren’t tied into the brick.


To play devil's advocate for a minute, the house has been standing for 28 years. Were there any indications of failure?

#8

Originally Posted By: kleonard
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icon_eek.gif


Anyway's I am recommending a Structural engineer for further evaluation on this issue and the lack of a rim joist issue. CYA...

Thanks for the feedback,

Kevin Leonard

#9

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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Yes, it is a good call to refer to a structural engineer but don’t they teach general construction terms at Thomson University?


Where has Igor been? I miss him.

--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

#10

Originally Posted By: kleonard
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I hope you can see this ok. It’s right out of the book from Thomson U.







![](upload://dSCA5UMCoojQnu90V7JdrujLbul.jpeg)

Do They need to be corrected as I did? ![icon_redface.gif](upload://f7DX2EWhmUfsDapWaYT3oJHMCj1.gif)

let me try again.
http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/0scan0001.jpg

#11

Originally Posted By: kleonard
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And again…


![](upload://ftSmVTGTjzgMVbeJubl9aAzVkwz.jpeg)

#12

Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
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Arguing over regional differences in terminology is fruitless. They can all be considered right depending on where you are.


I've seen the board at the end of joists called:

Rim Joist
Band Joist
Header

None of them are "wrong". It's just the particular region's terminology.

Point of fact is, that whatever you call it, it needs to be there.

--
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, Kentucky
www.b4uclose.com

#13

Originally Posted By: kleonard
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Right On Erby!! icon_biggrin.gif

#14

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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I wasn’t referring to the header. icon_rolleyes.gif

–
Inspection Nirvana!


We're NACHI. Get over it.
#15

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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And I’ve also seen sill pate, mud sill, mud sole, frame plate, sole plate, bottom plate, bottom sill…and that was all in VA! icon_lol.gif

#16

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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Kevin,


Thank you for answering my question. Thomson University apparently does teach construction nomenclature. The illustration is clear, at least in regards to frame plates and mud sills. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

Erby, who's arguing?

Blaine, now I know why you moved to Florida.

--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

#17

Originally Posted By: khamilton
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“2) Another concern I have is, still in the basement, the beam consists of “2ea” 2x4s stacked on top of each other, running the length of the basement, with one door frame to enter the other half of the basement. The posts consist of a series of 2x4s resembling framing with 12” spans and a 2x4 soleplate attached on the bottom. a couple of the 2x4s were bowed and a couple were missing. the rest were very stiff."


Kevin, This "bearing wall" is running from side wall to side wall, right?

How deep is the house from front to back?

Do the floor joists run all the way from the front wall to the rear wall, or is there a "front set" and and "rear set" which both rest on the wall you described?

Is there a header over the doorway leading from one side to the other? What size is it?

(from your description...double top plate, 12" OC studs, it sounds like you've got a bearing wall there that perhaps got engineered by the contractor instead of an engineer/architect. ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif) I'd definitely call for a structural evaluation)

Kip

#18

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Quote:
It's been standing for 28 years and appears to be as solid as a rock ... But does that mean it will stand another 28 years, or 28 day's?...

The structure may have never been subjected to the full design loads. Many structures fail when they are suddenly fully loaded ... look at what happens in earthquakes and hurricanes. Again, good call Kevin ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
#19

Originally Posted By: kleonard
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Kip,


The bearing wall is running from side to side.

The house is approx. 30' front to back and approx 60' side to side.

There is a set of front and rear floor joists.

There is a header over the doorway consisting of a 2x4 approx. 40" long.

And it's a done deal on the structural engineer.

Kevin

#20

Originally Posted By: kleonard
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Thanks Robert,


And Thanks to all for all the great input and advice.

Kevin