Good evening gentleman
Quick question
Generators need to have a transfer switch and their own sub panel right? The main panel today had a the generator hooked right up to a breaker.
Depends on if it has an interlock device or not. It must have a means to disconnect / isolate the main electrical supply. All generator hook ups in THIS state require a permit and inspection.
AAAAAAAH. Duct tape is an effective interlock device right??:mrgreen::mrgreen:
Only if you spray paint it black so it looks like Lectrikal Tape… :mrgreen:
If you’re referring to a portable generator then manual or automatic transfer equipment is not required. A generator with an automatic transfer switch is required to carry the entire connected load or have load shedding capability to prevent it from overloading.
I am not familiar with generators Robert. It was a generator that was backfeeding the panel through a breaker in the main panel. There was no interlock. (unless duct tape counts)
I would estimate that 99% of all generators used during this East Coast hurricane were incorrectly and illegally connected. I’ve spoken to over two dozen people this week who had portable generators operating during this power outage and exactly ZERO had connected the generator in a code compliant matter. And most of them were veteran electricians. :roll:
Juan - Not sure if this helps out or not, but here is a photo of a Federal Pioneer main panel with generator “sub-panel” contained in the bottom 1/2. You can see the slide lock-out bar prevents both the generator or main power to be “on” at the same time.
Thanks man that does help. Steves link had a video that showed how they work. I didn’t know this was an alternative installation to the transfer switch. Either way…duct tape ISNT gonna cut it.
I would venture to say 99% of all portable generators (15KW or less) are installed in violation of the NEC when it comes to connections to dwellings. UL requires (as part of their listing) that a permanent system bonding jumper be installed on all portable generators 15KW or less yet as stated nearly 99% (don’t ask me where I got these numbers , I just made them up for dramatic affect) are being installed as non-separately derived systems.
I think Mr. Whitt can pick it up and explain it from here:)
In most states, not all, but in most states in order to connect a generator of any kind to a building that generator must be tested by a NRTL such as UL. Most NRTLs use the standards set forth by UL when testing.
The UL Standard for generators that have receptacles that are mounted on the frame of the generator MUST have the grounded (neutral) bonded to the frame of the generator in order to clear any faults in or on that generator.
UL FTCN states that any generator that has receptacles mounted on the frame of that generator MUST be connected to a building as a SDS and MUST have transfer equipment.
The use of extension cords from the receptacle on the generator to the appliance is fine and the intended use of that type of generators.
With the new rules found in 590 of the NEC, any generator that has receptacles mounted on the frame of the generator that are 120/240 volts and 30 amps or less must be GFCI protected. If the receptacle has GFCI protection then connecting it to the building as a non-SDS will only trip out the GFCI.
What I can’t figure for the life of me is why anyone would want to spend that kind of money to connect such a small generator to their homes for in the first place.
Obviously you haven’t spent a week in the cold and darkness with no heat, hot water or lights. 
Mike and I disagree on this one. IMO a portable generator connected to a house system does not fall under Article 590 temporary installations it’s under Article 702, therefore the GFCI requirement goes away and everything works just fine. Now if there a listing issues well that’s something different. 
Rob,
Help me understand your thinking. Here is mine
**702.2 Definition. **
Optional Standby Systems. Those systems intended to supply power to public or private facilities or property where life safety does not depend on the performance of the system. Optional standby systems are intended to supply on-site generated power to selected loads either automatically or manually.
Informational Note: Optional standby systems are typically installed to provide an alternate source of electric power for such facilities as industrial and commercial buildings, farms, and residences and to serve loads such as heating and refrigeration systems, data processing and communications systems, and industrial processes that, when stopped during any power outage, could cause discomfort, serious interruption of the process, damage to the product or process, or the like.
**590.6 Ground-Fault Protection for Personnel. **
Ground-fault protection for personnel for all temporary wiring installations shall be provided to comply with 590.6(A)](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011018123#70-2011:id02011018123) and (B)](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011018139#70-2011:id02011018139). This section shall apply only to temporary wiring installations used to supply temporary power to equipment used by personnel during construction, remodeling, maintenance, repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, equipment, or similar activities. This section shall apply to power derived from an electric utility company or from an on-site-generated power source.
This generator is not service equipment so it must fall under one or the other of these. If you don’t think that it does please explain just where it falls.
Mike…the generator can fall at my house as long as your paying fella…:)…I plan on wiring up an illegal one at my house soon…:)…don’t judge me young man…i am a low cost electrician:)
I do not believe that an optional generator setup would meet any of the conditions in 590.3.
590.3 Time Constraints.
(A) During the Period of Construction. Temporary electric
power and lighting installations shall be permitted during
the period of construction, remodeling, maintenance,
repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, equipment, or
similar activities.
(B) 90 Days. Temporary electric power and lighting installations
shall be permitted for a period not to exceed 90 days
for holiday decorative lighting and similar purposes.
The building is not being renovated nor are holiday lights or a carnival like event being powered from the genset. IMO only 702 applies.
Will you two settle it and send me a generator already…
The debate is GFCI is not required when used to power our homes.
If we connect the generator to our homes as a 702 installation it must be connected as a SDS. If we don’t want to connect to our homes as a 702 installation then we must use it as a 590 set up.
**590.6 Ground-Fault Protection for Personnel. **
Ground-fault protection for personnel for all temporary wiring installations shall be provided to comply with 590.6(A)](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011018123#70-2011:id02011018123) and (B)](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011018139#70-2011:id02011018139). This section shall apply only to temporary wiring installations used to supply temporary power to equipment used by personnel during construction, remodeling, maintenance, repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, equipment, or similar activities. This section shall apply to power derived from an electric utility company or from an on-site-generated power source.
Mike, the strength or weakness of you arguments is based on your interpretation of the generator in question falling under Temporary Installations, Article 590. If it does then as you’ve pointed out the GFCI requirement comes into play. If it doesn’t then it just another power source based on Article 702.
Let’s say for arguments sake you’re correct, then in your opinion you cannot legally connect a portable generator to a house. That would also mean that the tens of thousands of existing installations out there that have been installed and inspected are all illegal. Which in turn means that everyone of those installers and inspectors have missed something that you have found.
If this were a non-standard obscure type of installation then you may be on to something but these things are so common place I cannot believe that everyone else is wrong. My 2 cents.
Okay let’s call it an optional standby system. This means all of Article 702 will apply including the last sections of that article.
Yes I agree that there are many out there that are installed illegally. Look at the single ground rod that is still discussed today and that has always been the rule. Look at the Brown Orange Yellow standard of practice; it is not a requirement either. Wonder how many microwave receptacles that have been installed set to far back in a cabinet? How many 2 cubic inch pancake boxes your reckon there is holding a flood light. All these were installed by an electrician and passed by an inspector and they are just as wrong.
One final point I must make is that this was not my train of thought until I went to last year’s Southern Sectional of the IAEI where Mark Ode of UL spent several minutes explaining. He is the one who is guilty of putting this in my mind.
Damn that Ode, he’s good at messing up the stuff that we do every day and have been doing so for 40 years. Like stating that a meter hub cannot be connected to an SE cable connector, EMT connector, or a PVC terminal adapter all of which cover about 95% of every residential service installed in this country. 