Originally Posted By: bking This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I just had info relayed to me that “double tapped neutrals was ok prior to 1993”.
Can anyone provide info or older code ref. that states otherwise on this?
thanks
added with edit:
Double tapped neutrals were never allowed due to the code stating that panels must be installed as per the maufacture instructions. Some panel labels will show this some will not.
The problem is that code officials have never enforced this enough for the electricians to learn it. They assume that it is ok because the older code books did not explain it in detail. And to make things worse, some panels show that multiple wires under a screw are ok and have a little note that says "applies to EQPT GND only" This little note is missed by many.
Another similar thing is flex gas lines, code says they are ok to use.
Then another part of the code says not allowed in walls or inside cabinets.
The tradesmen miss the 2nd part and many code officials allow it.
Originally Posted By: lkage This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bruce,
In believe 2002 the NEC added 408.21 regarding no double lugged neutrals.
Before that I believe it was covered by: 110.14(A)..."Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified." So, unless the panel was labeled for it, it was not permitted although not enforced very well.
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
It was always considered not allowed basically via Standard 67 for the manufacturer but NEC bought it to light in the 2002 NEC. Many that knew the code requirement to install the equipment as the manufacturer intends knew of this but to stop the confussion the NEC added it in 2002.
Now I am not into going back into the CLASSICS vault so I can't tell you the exact date the UL began this standard.....I do not have the desire to research it but I can say it is now a requirement.....and for HI's to enforce* it you have to understand that it was governed by the manufacturer prior to the 2002 NEC....
Disclaimer- * To enforce I am refering to stand your ground in explaining the history of the requirement....anytime you go up against a EC or someone who has a little background they will expect you to know what you speak of before you speak of it....
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
lol…Enforce the THEORY of bringing it to the clients attention. In order to be able to explain to the client WHY is it wrong in light of a local electrical contractor saying it was allowed prior to 2002…you will have a PI@@ing contest with a local EC…
My point is...if you are going to write up double taps as most inspection contracts and forms list.....the HI ( which I am one as well ) need to understand where it is coming from before they can engage in it....regardless if it is double taps of Non-Grounded or Grounded Conductors.
Not enforce as in Code Enforcement...lol...please you know me better than that...lol
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: Joe Funderburk This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
First of all, I maied my payment today…will be a member this week hopefully.
About the double taps, I write them up no matter what. They are usually included in a long list of other electrical items. At the end of the list, there is this statement:
"Considering the findings mentioned above, it is recommended a State licensed electrician examine these items and repair as deemed necessary."
Last week I was called to do a re-inspect and one of the items was double-tapped neutrals. Some were fixed, but the electrician missed two on a rear bus. The listing agent immediately got the electrician on the phone and he promplty read me the riot act, telling me that there was no requirement for single tapping prior to a certain date (199x--I forgot the date he mentioned). He wanted my license number and said he was going to file a complaint. He was all worked up because he was going to have to come back to the property. He's a busy man.
I responded, "well, if it wasn't required, why did you fix the other two?" I also told him that I didn't tell anyone to fix the double-tap situation. My report said a licensed electrician should examine and repair "as deemed necessary." I reiterated, that if he didn't feel it was necessary he should have said so and done nothing.
He blabberd on, but I passed the phone back to the Realtor. I had work to do. I'm busy too.
Originally Posted By: bking This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hi Joe, glad to hear that you are joining NACHI !
I am also in the process of joining PAHI, we meet 2 times a month in Rock Hill on wed’s. Great group of guy’s and tons of information. www.pahi.org
On the house I had with the so called "grandfathered neutral double taps" I had the owner/seller go look at his panel after his electrician said they were ok and he agreed with me. (he works in the const. business)
here is the label on the panel:
You can see why an electrician could get confused on this.
If you do not see the magic bullet here that proves my case, I will point it out later.
Originally Posted By: rcooke This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
A good reason for never having double taps on Neutrals is.
Suppose you have a load on breaker #2 of 10 amps (phase B)
You have a load on breaker #3 of 2 amps ( phase A)
Both neutrals are under the same lug.
If some one wanting to remove a wire and loosen the wrong screw
on the double tapped neutrals you could end up with a very high voltage
on the #3 circuit and a very low voltage on the #2 circuit and this could cause
considerable damage to voltage sensitive equipment.
This could even happen if the screw was never tightened properly.