Attic converted into Living space.....

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#1

Originally Posted By: Kirk Smith
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Inspected a house yesterday a 1900 hip pyramid style roof. The attic had been converted into a living space. There was no way to check the roofing structure for possible leakage. It was an asphalt comp 3rd layer put on 4yrs ago. Sorry no pictures. The house had many other problems but this one seems to bother me the most. How would someone write this up properly. Thanks for your replies in advance.

–
Kirk Smith


Welcome Home Inspections

#2

Originally Posted By: jstevens
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i would tell buyer to get a roofing contractor to check roof out and also disclaim every thing in the attic.

#3

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Kirk Smith wrote:
It was an asphalt comp 3rd layer put on 4yrs ago. Sorry no pictures.


I don't know of anyplace that allows 3 layers of roofing.

If they do not specifically allow it where you are, it needs to be re-roofed anyway, so your problems go away.

If they do allow it (why on earth would they), advise your client that 3 layers is not good for the roof structure (each layer adds weight) and not good for the roof covering (each layer traps heat and should only be installed over sound and nailable roofing, and if it was sound, why was it covered?, and that it should be replaced now rather than later. Remind them that it will cost more to remove three layers than one, and more to dump at the land fill (takes up three times the cu yard and weighs three times as much - different landfills charge one way or the other, but both will be three times as much as one layer.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
#4

Originally Posted By: dbush
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Jerry, all of the area I cover around here allows up to 3 layers. Actually, since many of the counties I work in don’t have building permit requirements, I have found a couple with 4 layers.

–
Dave Bush


MAB Member


"LIFE'S TOUGH, WEAR A HELMET"
#5

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Dave,


That's when you explain all the other drawbacks I mentioned, and other you know of, to your client. They can then use that as a reason to get the roof replaced, or a credit to replace the roof. All depending on the wording of their sale contracts, down here (with the sales contracts used down here), that would not be a problem.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

#6

Originally Posted By: jstevens
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ok i agree with jerry about replacein the roof but and it is a big but if the roof is good that is on there now it should be told as he sees it . you know as well as i know it would be a deal buster if you told him he should replace it what if the roof is neww 3 rd layer .it should be good for 15 to 25 yrs . so i would just report on the condtion of the roof now .and still let him know the next time he needs a roof it will have to be torn off etc. my 2 cents

#7

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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James,


"you know as well as i know it would be a deal buster if you told him he should replace it"

Deal buster or not, they should be told the same thing. Just because something is or may be a "deal buster", that should have no bearing on how we address it to our client.

In fact, if you consider it a "deal buster", it is in your client's best interest to know that. And in YOUR best interest to tell them.

"Your Honor, I thought it might be a deal buster, so I didn't want to say what I normally say ... ", I am sure that will go over very well with everyone.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

#8

Originally Posted By: jstevens
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jerry the roof is 4 yrs old and im from boston and its code to have 3 roofs as lonf as the roof can carry the weight so i still say the roof is servicableand most owners dont keep their house more than 5 to 10 yrs before they sell .thats what i read alot about .but here in fl. i wont have a roof with more than 1 layer on it cause of the heat my 2 cents

#9

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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And there is engineering which states that this roof structure can support 3 layers?


Here we are, all saying we wouldn't want it on OUR roof, but not telling the customer the same thing for fear of causing a problem with a deal?

What are we? Weasels?

I thought we were professionals, at least, that is what everyone says they want to be considered as.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

#10

Originally Posted By: jstevens
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#11

Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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If a roof has two layers, I always recommend a tear-off if they decide to re-roof! If it has three, I tell them it’s a no-no…especially when combined with the snow-load around here!

–
Wisconsin Home Inspection, ABC Home Inspection LLC


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#12

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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As a guide, the IRC only allows 2 layers of roofing … icon_wink.gif


[But that doesn't mean it's an automatic tear-off ... just something to be aware of in terms of it may be adding a little too much weight for some situations]

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

#13

Originally Posted By: keith baker
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another alternative is to leave the existing roof there and install a wooden slat/metal roof over it. you would still be way under 1 lb. per sq. ft.and save all the work and land fill costs. icon_smile.gif

–
metal roofing contractor specializing in metal roofing fabricating and installing. located in central pa area, re-roofing commercial projects in pa. state.site formed seamless panels available. email: keithbaker1@earthlink.net or call:(814)224~4268

#14

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Nope, you’d want to remove those other three layers.

–
Jerry Peck


South Florida

#15

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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keith baker wrote:
... install a wooden slat/metal roof over it.

That might be adding insult to injury ... particularly for marginally sized roof framing in heavier snow load areas ... and may tend to further trap heat in the attic.

Just my opinion and 2-nickels ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
#16

Originally Posted By: jsmith10
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to living space.


You said it was a pyramid roof and from my experience many of these have no dormers, windows or vents other than roof vents.


Is there an egress exit for this living space? Is there proper ventilation and heating for this area?

If not I would definitely mention this as it can't be considered living space (in most area's that I'm aware of) and would certainly be considered a safety hazard.

Just curious.

--
Joe,
Vice-President, Idaho Chapter,
www.NachiIdaho.org

Inspected as though my family are to live or work there.

http://www.Treasurevalleyinspections.com

#17

Originally Posted By: dfrend
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Forget about the weight of the extra layers. How about the life of the shingles. A third layer of shingles is going to deteriorate a hell of a lot faster than a single or even 2nd layer. Jerry touched on it, but not enough. I have seen 3 layer roofs that are shot after 10 years just from deterioration. The shingles need to breath and when they get the hot shingles trapped below them they will cup and bend alot quicker, count on it.


Most homes can handle the 3 layers, 4 is a big no-no. But someone buying a home with a 4 year old third layer should be told that it won't last them nearly as long as a single layer 4 year old roof. And that if they don't do it now, they will have to still eventually PAY to tear off ALL layers themselves.

Another thing, I might be wrong, but doesn't FHA require no more than 2 on its insured loans? This would affect many buyers.

--
Daniel R Frend
www.nachifoundation.org
The Home Inspector Store
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#18

Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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Learn something new every day. Didn’t know that shingles needed to breathe a bit, and why extra layers reduce the life. Always knew about extra load though.


Thanks guys...one of the reasons I love this board ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

--
Wisconsin Home Inspection, ABC Home Inspection LLC

Search the directory for a Wisconsin Home Inspector

#19

Originally Posted By: aslimack
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I think the rough estimate is around 5yrs. off of the life expectancy for each additional layers. 20 yr. shingle becomes a 15 yr. Lot of variables. How badly deteriorayed was/were the previous layer/layers? How flat will the additional layer(s) lay over the previous layer/layers? Proper ventilation? …

#20

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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in my area means that one layer was installed without a permit. Two layers only (In Mass.).


I had this one two weeks ago. Can you count the layers?
![](upload://me4MtRe3nGBGET8vgZY42XGj9kl.gif)

This is a portion of the top layer of the same roof.


--
David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."