Code 405.3.1 residential, water coset

[esapp2 (Ebany Sapp)]

A plumber in MI says the water closet can be touching..butting up against a wall and that is okay and normal. I disagreed. Who is correct? I stated code 405.3.1

[lkage (Larry Kage, CMI)]

@esapp2

A plumber in MI says the water closet can be touching..butting up against a wall and that is okay and normal. I disagreed. Who is correct? I stated code 405.3.1 .

Please, paste what you think in that code makes you believe you are correct.

…and, state what you believe to be the issue…if touching the wall.

EDIT: For instance, I have seen many toilets roughed in at 12” from finished wall that will have the tank lid touch the wall upon finish installation.

[ryoung7 (ROBERT YOUNG, CMI)]

1: Water Closet-Toilets should have at least 15 inches (38 cm) of clearance to side obstructions. 2: Clearance from the front edge of the toilet to the opposing wall, 21" inches if I am not mistaken..

[mwilles (Martin Willes, CMI)]

@esapp2

A plumber in MI says the water closet can be touching..butting up against a wall and that is okay and normal. I disagreed. Who is correct? I stated code 405.3.1

There’s no problem if the toilet tank is in contact with the wall. This is small potatoes, I usually have bigger fish to fry on my inspections.

[lkage (Larry Kage, CMI)]

@esapp2

closet, urinal, lavatory or bidet shall not be set closer than 15 inches (381 mm) from its center to any side wall, partition, vanity or other obstruction,”

I thought that the obstruction could be what I deemed to be, in this case the back wall since It made a sound-pressing and releasing against the wall paint each time a member sat down to use it. The wall was in the way of it’s usage, like a slow degrading on the structure.
Bringing nails down a chalkboard won hurt the chalkboard except maybe over time you see the nail prints. What kind of mark would a porcelain toilet make over years against paint, drywall, structure at that part. In the end I concluded it to be a nuisance only.

The manufacturer’s installation instructions I have read put the layout of 12” to toilet flange center line rough in from finished wall surface….so, the 15” doesn’t seem to fly there.

[megbert2 (Michael Egbert)]

“SIDE wall” is the operative part there. Like Martin said there are surely bigger things to worry about. Is this for an inspection or for yourself?

[ryoung7 (ROBERT YOUNG, CMI)]

@lkage

The manufacturer’s installation instructions I have read put the layout of 12” to toilet flange center line rough in

Morning Larry. Hope to find you well and in good spirits today.
I think you are looking at this as an manufacturer’s installation instructions and not from a building codes or home inspection instruction as to ensure an installed plumbing component meets or surpasses a basic minimum health, safety, and performance standard.
I hope I expressed my view properly.

Installation instructions does not necessarily take into consideration of the apex of a toilet rim nor the toilet seat position of a water closet/toilet.
A toilet flange center is off-center and behind to a toilet bowl rim or a toilet seat position which is forward the toilet bowl plumbing installation flange. Typically/usually in most situations of a 2 part toilet, the upper toilet tank that hold water and the lower portion of a typical toilet being the toilet bowl, the part we sit on or stand in front of to urinate, the toilet bowl flange is typically the lowest centered toilet bowl apparatus directly under and secured to a toilet tank that holds and refills with bulk water.
Here is an illustration of a 2 part waste sanitary water plumbing component called a flush water toilet or WC for slang or Water Closet / flash commode. Note were the tank connection is allocated the toilet bowl flange. They appear to be directly in a vertical line to one another.

[mdurante (Michael Durante)]

@esapp2

closet, urinal, lavatory or bidet shall not be set closer than 15 inches (381 mm) from its center to any side wall,

The 15" from CL of the toilet flange is measured to the sides not the back.

@esapp2

thought that the obstruction could be what I deemed to be, in this case the back wall since It made a sound-pressing and releasing against the wall paint each time a member sat down to use it

Sounds to me like a loose toilet or tank, not a clearance issue.. It shouldn’t move at all when used.

You also have to keep in mind that not all toilets have the same dimensions front to back. A flange installed in accordance with one manufacturer could cause the tank of a different manufacturer’s toilet to make contact with the wall in the back.

[ryoung7 (ROBERT YOUNG, CMI)]

@esapp2

I thought that the obstruction could be what I deemed to be

Morning, Ebany. Hope to find you well and in good spirits today.

You are not thinking clearly. You are a certified home inspector or CPI. No more, no less, unless you have accredited credentials that prove otherwise. You could be in for a world in need of financial help otherwise.
AHJ, Authorities Having Jurisdiction or other Jurisdictional Authorities can and sometimes do note compliance obstructions and may or may not make recommendations therein.
I hope I explained myself properly to you. You have no credentialed authority, unless you do and have not explained to us, to deem obstructions in jurisdictions as a certified home inspector-CPI.

AJH/Authorities Having Jurisdiction have authority. AHJ is an Organization, an office, or registered individual responsible for enforcing building codes, building code standards, and building code regulations ‘within a specific jurisdiction.’

Good luck with your endeavors.
Regards.
Robert Young

[lkage (Larry Kage, CMI)]

@lkage

@esapp2

A plumber in MI says the water closet can be touching..butting up against a wall and that is okay and normal. I disagreed. Who is correct? I stated code 405.3.1 .

Please, paste what you think in that code makes you believe you are correct.

…and, state what you believe to be the issue…if touching the wall.

EDIT: For instance, I have seen many toilets roughed in at 12” from finished wall that will have the tank lid touch the wall upon finish installation

@ryoung7

Morning Larry. Hope to find you well and in good spirits today.
I think you are looking at this as an manufacturer’s installation instructions and not from a building codes or home inspection instruction as to ensure an installed plumbing component meets or surpasses a basic minimum health, safety, and performance standard.
I hope I expressed my view properly.

Installation instructions does not necessarily take into consideration of the apex of a toilet rim nor the toilet seat position of a water closet/toilet.
A toilet flange center is off-center and behind to a toilet bowl rim or a toilet seat position which is forward the toilet bowl plumbing installation flange. Typically/usually in most situations of a 2 part toilet, the upper toilet tank that hold water and the lower portion of a typical toilet being the toilet bowl, the part we sit on or stand in front of to urinate, the toilet bowl flange is typically the lowest centered toilet bowl apparatus directly under and secured to a toilet tank that holds and refills with bulk water.
Here is an illustration of a 2 part waste sanitary water plumbing component called a flush water toilet or WC for slang or Water Closet / flash commode. Note were the tank connection is allocated the toilet bowl flange. They appear to be directly in a vertical line to one another

So, are you saying the toilet flange center line should be installed at 15” minimum from the finished wall at the rear?

Everyone might consider what Michael offered about “SIDE WALL” is the operative descriptive word in that sentence.

[ddagostino (Dominic DAgostino, CMI HI3957)]

@esapp2

obstruction could be what I deemed to be, in this case the back wall

Then you’ll be writing up every toilet ever installed.

[ryoung7 (ROBERT YOUNG, CMI)]

@lkage

So, are you saying the toilet flange center line should be installed at 15” minimum from the finished wall at the rear?

Everyone might consider what Michael offered about “SIDE WALL” is the operative descriptive word in that sentence.

Morning, Larry:-)
A: What I was trying to explain is, manufacturer’s plumbing component installation instructions for a flush toilet do not translate to human practical use as a industry safety compliances for using the toilet bowl in a safe environment for its intended purpose, to evacuate the human body’s liquid and solid waste and waste disposal.

B: I concur with Michael’s definition. Side Walls being purposed as a border line to on-center/OC point for the minimum 15" inch free space rule. All good!

I hope that satisfied your questions.
Kind regards as always, Larry.
Robert Young

[lkage (Larry Kage, CMI)]

@ryoung7

@lkage

So, are you saying the toilet flange center line should be installed at 15” minimum from the finished wall at the rear?

Everyone might consider what Michael offered about “SIDE WALL” is the operative descriptive word in that sentence.

Morning, Larry:-)
A: What I was trying to explain is, manufacturer’s plumbing component installation instructions for a flush toilet do not translate to human practical use as a industry safety compliances for using the toilet bowl in a safe environment for its intended purpose, to evacuate the human body’s liquid and solid waste and waste disposal.

B: I concur with Michael’s definition. Side Walls being purposed as a border line to on-center/OC point for the minimum 15" inch free space rule. All good!

I hope that satisfied your questions.
Kind regards as always, Larry
Robert Young

I have no idea how that relates to what @esapp2 and I were talking about.

…but, whatever.

[ryoung7 (ROBERT YOUNG, CMI)]

It kinda does, Larry.
You posted; “The manufacturer’s installation instructions I have read put the layout of 12” to toilet flange center line rough in from finished wall surface….so, the 15” doesn’t seem to fly there.”

That is what you and I have been discussing, or so I thought.

You are following the OP’s thread buddy. No worries.

[lkage (Larry Kage, CMI)]

Oh, man oh man…

[mwilles (Martin Willes, CMI)]

This is the problem when home inspectors who don’t understand or comprehend codes reference them. It appears we even have one inspector from Canada who’s having a difficult time comprehending as well.

Bottom line it’s a non-issue, move on, go to the light, farewell.

[yzhang (Yu Zhang)]

Before you use the code you need to know the intent or have a decent idea of it. What does 15 inches to the back wall get you? A whole lot of wasted space. The 15 inches to the sides of the toilet are so that your average adult(how ever this was figured out) can sit at the toilet. Probably needs to be 16 or 17 inches tbh with the obesity epidemic nowadays.

[jjonas (Jeffrey Jonas)]

@yzhang

What does 15 inches to the back wall get you? A whole lot of wasted space.

Extra space for a custom toilet versus a standard toilet (12 inches)…

https://lixil.cdn.celum.cloud/167666_as_us_bath_spec__204B%20(8364)_original.pdf

[yzhang (Yu Zhang)]

Yes they do make different size toilets for different rough in conditions with 12” being the standard size

[ryoung7 (ROBERT YOUNG, CMI)]

@mwilles

It appears we even have one inspector from Canada who’s having a difficult time comprehending as well.

Maybe I misunderstood or misinterpreted.
Quote please.