Double Tap

Obviously this is a double tap. However, I beleve there have been prior posts about door bell transformer should not be installed in the main panel.
If that is the case why shouldn’t they be in the panel. Also, what type of comment would you write. A curious mind wants to know!:slight_smile:

LV and HV should not be mixed. There is potential for the LV to take on increased voltage which would be bad.

The LV transformers can over heat also

110.3(B) tells us that listed or labeled equipment has to be installed in accordance with the instructions. Panel enclosures generally come with a label that tells you what equipment, in addition to breakers & wires, you’re allowed to put in the enclosure. Doorbell transformers are not on that list. So the code reference you’re looking for is 110.3(B).

Found this on a message board and is what I reference. My comment is that the panel label does not list door bell as an acceptable device installed in the panel. Should be removed by a qualified electrical contractor.

We could talk all day about class 2 wiring and the acceptable method that could be considered correct to install a transformer. But because that is very subjective, 110.3 (b) is what I would use when discussing with an electrician

That installation would likely violate this and the transformer is not properly grounded.

Thanks for the responses.

Observation: Mixed voltage double tapper 15 amp breaker.
Recommend: Any low voltage conductors be installed on separate breakers.

Tell us what you end up narrating about the mixed Voltage tap.

Say what?
The primary side of a step down transformer is 120v, so the double tap is just a double 120v tap.

I thought it was low voltage.

Always one in a crowd.:slight_smile:

The low voltage double tapped breaker that should be on a separate breaker.

I would like to know where you see a low voltage breaker in the OP’s picture .

The black insulated conductors coming out the back of the step down transformer are 120v, and they are tied into the 15a breaker, and the neutral (white conductor with red wire nut), the brown insulated conductors (Bell Wire) coming off the front are the low voltage conductors, and they appear to be leaving the enclosure in three directions .

Couldn’t locate an old two wire, but here is a three wire, (hot, neutral, ground ) for reference.

Observation: Double tap on 15 amp breaker .
Observation:** Non listed low voltage device improperly installed in Distribution Panel Enclosure
Recommend:** All branch circuits to be installed on separate breakers and Low voltage device moved to proper enclosure and wired per manufacturers specifications by Qualified Electrician.

Using the wrong term.
Look its a double tap.
Its painfully obvious. Ouch.

The step down transformer that transformers 120 to 12 V should be on a separate breaker.

Sorry I am not paying attention.

PS: An idea.
Next time, narrate an example with the quote preceding the error.
Just a thought:-),

Question, how would you narrate this.

High res image. Zoom in all you like.
A simple narrative on the defect would suffice.
I have emailed off the report.

Its not about the Federal Pioneer panel.

I’m sorry, but I was trained by a very knowledgeable Gentleman that would not answer a question directly, but would ask a series of questions, so I would learn not only the answer for myself, but also the reasoning process behind the answer.

That training has served me well in my education and experience troubleshooting and repairing electromechanical process systems, high voltage motor drives, and pneumatic control systems in On-site Industrial Gas Plants. (In my “other life” I was a Plant Operator for a 100 Ton VPSA Oxygen Plant for a Glass Manufacturer, A 70 Ton Cryogenic Nitrogen Plant for a Steel Manufacturers Annealing Process, and a 30 Ton Membrane Nitrogen Plant providing a safety blanket on top of a Coke Byproducts Tank )

I meant no offense by asking about the low voltage circuit and breakers, but was attempting to steer you into reasoning out the answer for yourself.

As I stated above that is how I learned, and in doing so I have found it is better served to have someone attempt to find the answer for themselves, then to just give them the answer. That will help them to understand a whole lot more.

Now for your Picture…

Observation: Multiple double taps on Over Current Protection Devices in Electrical Distribution Panel
Observation:** Branch Circuit Conductors entering Electrical Distribution Panel through protection grommets instead of being secured by approved, properly sized, NM/SEU Cable Connectors
Observation:** Multiple Branch Circuits entering Electrical Distribution Panel through a single NM/SEU Cable Connector
Observation:** Open, unused knock out in Electrical Distribution Panel
Observation**: Misidentified as Grounded, Non Grounded Conductor from Over Current Protection Device leading out to a Branch Circuit
Recommend: **All above noted defects observed, be evaluated and properly repaired by a Qualified Electrician

[quote=“tsteiner, post:14, topic:85591”]

I’m sorry, but I was trained by a very knowledgeable Gentleman that would not answer a question directly, but would ask a series of questions, so I would learn not only the answer for myself, but also the reasoning process behind the answer.


Please do not be sorry.
I do the same myself.
Its understood.

Thank you.
I knew you have a very abundant source of information and recall.

PS: Some parties to my applied reasoning do show their aptitude.

Unless there is local rule and the breaker allows multiple conductors there is no reason to dedicate a breaker for so small a load.

Very true, but since the device requires moving from the panel, would it not just be easier to install it in a junction box outside the Distribution Enclosure and just add it to a branch circuit that is already present?

IE: Cut into a small load branch circuit, wire nut (inside the j box with the transformer screwed to the lid) in the device and call it a day.

There is more.
Hi def Image. Sinp and zoom in.
Clue; It lay within your first answer.

Are you referring to the 14 ga conductor terminated in the 20a breaker on the left side of the panel? (White bodied breaker with red switches)

I had noticed that there were 2 different sized conductors terminated at that two pole OCPD when I saw the misidentified non grounded conductor below it, but wasn’t aware that it was a 20a breaker.

We don’t see many Federal Pioneer Panels here in the US, so I am not fully aware of the color coded switches on the STAB-LOK Type NC two pole breakers.

But I did some quick research and found out this information.
Blue switch 15a
Red switch 20a
Green switch 30a
Grey switch 40a

Class 2 transformers are permitted to be protected by OCPD of 15 or 20 amps even if their leads are smaller than the sizes required in Article 240 or 310.