GFCI in bathrooms -- distance to sink

Originally Posted By: srowe
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Need a code reference or explanation please!!


A bathroom has two outlets that serve the same counter. It has one GFCI receptacle directly above the sink and one outlet that is about 3' from sink that is NOT gfci protected.

Builder claims that electrician and local code inspector says the one that is about 3' away does not have to be protected because there is a GFCI receptacle above the sink.

This sounds absolutely incorrect to me. Can someone explain how this can be so?

ALSO, outlets within 6" of a laundry tub has to be GFCI protected , right?

(Maybe the builder is asking the AHJ about GFCI receptacles requirements and not actual GFCI protection)


Originally Posted By: jwilliams4
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2002 NEC 210.8(A) All 125 volts single phase 15 & 20 amp receptacles…shall have GFCI protection


(1) Bathrooms

Period. There was no more said about it.


--
"not just an inspection, but an education"

Originally Posted By: lkage
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I believe the gfci protection requirement for bathrooms has been in place since 1975.



“I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn’t learn something from him.”


Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted By: Thomas Ogryski
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Receptacles within 6 feet of the outside edge of the laundry tub are required to be GFI protected due to a change that appears in the 2005 NEC. 2005 NEC 210.8(A)(7)



Tom


Originally Posted By: srowe
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I think the builder is blowing smoke about the AHJ saying it was not required. Bottom line is that my wife’s hair dryer with the 6’ cord will easily drop into the sink of water that is plugged into the non-gfci protected outlet


Originally Posted By: bsumpter
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DATES GFCI REQUIREMENTS WERE ESTABLISHED:


1971 Receptacles within 15 feet of pool walls


1971 All equipment used with storable swimming pools


1973 All outdoor receptacles


1974 Construction Sites


1975 Bathrooms, 120-volt pool lights, and fountain equipment


1978 Garages, spas, and hydromassage tubs


1978 Outdoor receptacles above 6ft.6in. grade access exempted


1984 Replacement of non-grounding receptacles with no grounding conductor allowed


1984 Pool cover motors


1984 Distance of GFCI protection extended to 20 feet from pool walls


1987 Unfinished basements


1987 Kitchen countertop receptacles within 6 feet of sink


1987 Boathouses


1990 Crawlspaces (with exception for sump pumps or other dedicated equip.)


1993 Wet bar countertops within 6 feet of sink


1993 Any receptacle replaced in an area presently requiring GFCI


1996 All kitchen counters ? not just those within 6 feet of sink


1996 All exterior receptacles except dedicated de-icing tape receptacle


1996 Unfinished accessory buildings at or below grade


1999 Exemption for dedicated equipment in crawlspace removed


Originally Posted By: Steven Brewster
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Shawn,


IRC 2003--E3802.1 Bathroom receptacles. All 125 v single-phase 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in bathrooms shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

Usually, if there are two receptacles near the sink, one will be GFCI and the other a standard receptacle but is connected to the GFCI and will trip when tested. (one GFCI receptacle can serve multiple receptacles).[/b][/u]


Originally Posted By: Robert Wade
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Spot on, Steve.


A very common and practical practice. But you would still want to test them.


Originally Posted By: Jay Moge
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Brian, cool post. i printed it and laminated it for my clip box. could you give us a source to quote? thanx icon_cool.gif


Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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The table is from Mike Holt


Originally Posted By: lewens
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Steven


It is my understanding that a gfci will only protect another receptical if it is down stream and not up stream of the gfci. Sparkies help please.


Larry



Just my usual 12.5 cents


From The Great White North Eh?
NACHI-CAN
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Originally Posted By: lkage
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lewens wrote:
Steven
It is my understanding that a gfci will only protect another receptical if it is down stream and not up stream of the gfci. Sparkies help please.
Larry


I am not a sparkie but you are correct in your understanding. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted By: mcyr
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icon_smile.gif icon_smile.gif


Codes due still require any receptacle to be within 6' of a water source to be GFCI, and also their is a code that requires a GFCI outlet that has to be installed within two feet of a kitchen sink.

My last job, the electrical got nailed at a final completion of a 220 bed dormitory where he had the receptacle 27" away.
Building was complete. Had to move all those receptacles three inches to get a CO. (50)
What is ironic, is the fact one of the electricians working on the job was a former Electrical Inspector from Lewiston, Maine.

P. S. This electrical inspector was also an @#$ hole when he was in office.
I dealt with him on a Hospital Building.

You never know.

Marcel


Originally Posted By: Jay Moge
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lewens wrote:
Steven
It is my understanding that a gfci will only protect another receptical if it is down stream and not up stream of the gfci. Sparkies help please.
Larry



yes and here is why. if the gfci was down stream, and tripped, then the power is still: from breaker to first outlet. if first outlet is gfci then any outlet there after is esentialy an "appliance" but instead of being plugged in front, it's wired in back. same difference. now if the gfci trips, anything connected off of it is also dead. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)


Originally Posted By: bbadger
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mcyr wrote:
![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif) ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

Codes due still require any receptacle to be within 6' of a water source to be GFCI,


What code is that,?

It is not an NEC requirement.


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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NEC 101- Based on 1999 Version


NEC 2002 Updates-
210.8(A)(![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif) All 125 volt 15 & 20 ampere receptacles installed in residential boathouses have to be GFCI protected.

NEC 2005 Updates-
210.8(A)(7) GFCI Required- GFCI protected Receptacle now required if within 6 feet of outside edge of utility, laundry, or wet bar sink in Dwelling Units

Ok......it is imporant for inspectors to know NEC Art.210-8 and what goes along with it. The confussion of the 6' rule came from it popping up in other areas of the code and needed to be understood. Many refer to the GFCI being within a specific distance of the bathroom sink BUT the GFCI rule ( 210.8(A)(1) has been in place listing bathrooms....enough said on that one....distance is not a issue on that one.

As bob has stated their is no issue of placement and terms "Water" as it usually refers to sources....

Summary of 210.8 - GFCI Requirements ( note these are also with the addition of the 2002 and 2005 changes above - VA is still on 1999)

210.8 Ground-fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personel.

(a) Dwellin Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15 and 20 ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified below SHALL have ground-fault -interupter protection for personel.

(1) Bathrooms.
(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of simular use.

Exception No 1. Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No 2. A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two applicances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another, and is cord-and plug connected in accordance with Section 400-7(a)(6), (a)(7), or (a)(![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif).

Receptacles installed under the exceptions to Section 210-8(a)(2) shall be considered as meeting the requirements of Section 210-52(g).

(3) Outdoors.

Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric snowmelting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Art. 426.

(4) Crawl Space. Where the crawl space is at or below grade level.

(5) Unfinished Basements. For purpose of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like.

Exception No 1. Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No 2. A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two applicances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another, and is cord-and plug connected in accordance with Section 400-7(a)(6), (a)(7), or (a)(![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif).

Receptacles installed under the exception of Section 210-8(a)(5) SHALL NOT be considered as meeting the requirements of Section 210-52(g).

(6) Kitchen. Where the receptacles are installed to serve countertops surfaces.

(7) Wet Bar Sinks ( expanded in 2005 above ) Where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfacnes and are located within 6' of the outside edge of the WET BAR SINK. Rreceptacles soutlets shall not be installed in a face up position in the work surface or countertops.

Ok....I wont go into the other than dwellings area......since it is HOME inspections.......and we wont go into the GFCI requirements of within distances of Spas and hot tubs and so on....View Art 680 in the NEC for that...as well in carnivals, docks, elivator pits, light fixtures over spas and well you name it.......

But the 6' from water is more of a myth....I believe it came from the wet bar requirement which I believe is why the NEC Review Commitee added the language to the 2005 revision.

Hope this helps explain i


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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Oh…I need to answer the question…lol…sorry…I am a bit long winded…but you will learn that…


1.) The code requires that the recept be within 3' of the edge of the basin in the bathroom.

But your contractor is wrong.....the NEC states all recepts in a bathroom shall be on GFCI protection......having one on it and not the other is incorrect.

Please review Art 210-8 (a)(1).......simply states recepts in bathrooms MUST be on GFCI protection.

2.) Yes, NEC 2005 Updates-
210.8(A)(7) GFCI Required- GFCI protected Receptacle now required if within 6 feet of outside edge of utility, laundry, or wet bar sink in Dwelling Units. However, your area MAY NOT be using the 2005 NEC at this time so it is important to know in your state which version is in use at all times.


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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pabernathy wrote:
But the 6' from water is more of a myth....I believe it came from the wet bar requirement which I believe is why the NEC Review Commitee added the language to the 2005 revision.

Hope this helps explain i


I think you explained it as well as it can be explained considering all the different requirements. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

I also agree the 6' myth comes from past and present uses of 6' for specific areas.


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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Yep, it does seem to added to every year as more people reflect on the GFCI and uncoming AFCI mixture.


I know I submitted my share of revision requests to the NEC Review Board over the past few years.

Very important HI's know which NEC is in effect in their area because it can be a possible argument over requirements that may not be enforceable....so HI's always make sure you know the NEC that has been adopted by your state ahead of time.

Don't try to enforce 2005 standards on a 2002 or 1999 approved state.


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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The language is not specifically there but it is hard to come up with a scenario where a GFCI is not required within 6’ of a “water source”, particularly after they added “laundry” to the list. A lot of defective washing machines will get attention after this becomes the standard. Hopefully the user won’t just cut the ground pin off icon_eek.gif