Has anyone ever seen this???

Furniture articles are a valid concern but not one we have to deal with as they typically do not convey in the transaction and are not covered in any inspections I am aware of being commonly conducted. Small areas of foam ( like gasketing materials or the cover on a 24"by 36" attic opening) are no big deal, but look at the pictures in the original post and then please put my words back into context. This is an improper installation because of the hazards it poses. I’ll meet you halfway on the illegal part but who is to say a liscensed (stupid) contractor did not charge for it- that would be illegal.

All good point of views from everyone, and I would like to add that the economics of this World, convenience of the styrene products in the Life Styles of most North American People have dissolved the reality of it’s deadly poison and flammability attributes that it brings to firefighters all over this Country and occupants of the simple residential dwellers throughout.

I is and has been enforced in Building design, by the NFPA to provide building Products that will be either contained by a fire resistive material and/or provide a polystyrene product that will meet the 25/50 burn criteria as tested by ASTM. ,25 indicates the flame spread of the product and 50 would be the smoke developed that it creates.

So one could say, yes foam products are use in all aspects of the Building Market.

Well, how many are being used like they should and how many are being installed properly to meet the NFPA standards that are there to protect all of us in a home that we cherish and raise our children?

We all use these products that we find convenient, but I don’t think it were meant to be improvised and used as an unprotected function.

Styrene products designed for convenience becomes more of a disposal factor and the fact it is not a green product.
Styrene products improvised as a building substitute is a deadly decision at hand or a bad poker hand.
Do you wish to position yourself and your family to the mercy of LUCK, that nothing will happen?

Marcel :slight_smile: :smiley:

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I expect it was the home owner who did it and not a contractor.
What I would like to find out is it illegal or is this just a surmise on our part. They are now spraying foam and in some cases sealing attics air tight.
Where is the difference with spray foam and loose foam.
Remember many out there are like me and have no idea if it is proper or not so lots gain much information from these discusions.
… Cookie

Hi. Roy;

One concern with foam insulation is its burn characteristics. Like wood, foam will burn when exposed to a constant ignition source. All half-pound foams should have a Class One Certifications since they are treated with a fire retardant package. The Demilec Foam we spray frequently, Sealection™ 500, has a flame spread index of 21 and smoke development of 216, which satisfies the 2003 International Residential Code (section R316). These are the key numbers building officials want to see.
To place the safety of foam insulation in an attic in context, there are many products in a home that contain foam, including carpet pads, sofa’s, and mattresses, just to name a few. The vast majority of fires start inside the house and not in attics. The foam we are installing is also separated from livable areas, people and ignition sources by sheet rock.
The codes intention is designed to keep people and ignition sources away from the foam. To keep people away from the foam, the attic space must not have a walk in door and storage areas. In an attic there must not be any open source flame appliances such as an eighty-percent efficient furnace. We tell our customers, who are using gas heating, to only use sealed combustion 90% efficient or better furnaces.

The IRC will permit a product that will meet the ASTM E 84 with a 200/450 flame spread and smoke developed so I guess your styrene cups would be alright then, right? ha. ha.

I think this would be where common sense would take over. :wink:

Marcel :slight_smile: :smiley:

I agree and when I see foam Board on Basement walls I write hard and tell them it must be covered or removed .
I expect most do nothing but My bottom is covered written up in to CRA.
I look forward to the Day insurance companies will allow people to put sprinklers in their homes .
… Cookie
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New Ontario code 2006 3.1.5.12. (2) It is permitted provide it is separated from adjacent living space by (a) 12.7mm gypsum board. (b) plaster, and it goes on.
Reference 9.10.17.10 also states if used in ceilings and walls it must be protected from adjacent living spaces.

Bottom line… it can be there, it just needs the correct protection from adjacent living spaces.
As has been stated, you see it applied as a foam spray on basement or attics. It simply needs the separation.

I must admit though, I think the egg crates look the best!:mrgreen:

Was my thinking, David. And covered with the fire retardent cellulose should improve both the “fire” situation and heating bill. How would you find the styrene under the cellulose if an owner like myself did this?

Have a local plant that manufactures types 1-4 expanded polystyrene board, ICF foundation block, air vent shutes, etc. They shred waste product and at times have simply sold the expanded beads also as a pouring insulation for attics and walls. If there was a problem, they’d be the first to know, be sued or shut down!!! Been doing it for 25-30 years at least.

How about a home we did last week it had wood wool is (Excelsior a wood product made of aspen fibers,) in walls for insulation .
Now I know of no insulation that could burn hotter or faster and spread the fire like wow .
This was a first for me .
It also had saw dust in one section of the home and saw dust does not burn well at all and another section had wood chips and they do burn well,
… Cookie

The use in the application is CRITICAL! Throwing something in YOUR attic (Hint: Where you, your wife and your KIDS live) is very different.

Are you a licensed and insured and educated professional engineer, chemist or architect? Do you know all the real and potential ramifications of your decision FOR THIS PARTICULAR APPLICATION!

If not, PLEASE defer to experts, who do know (or will find out) and will take the liability for YOUR safety.

Please excuse my vehamence, but I have seen too many kids get hurt from their parents mistakes.

Hope this helps;

Will:

If styrene is so bad why is it used for Dow SM, Protec, Celfort, Trufoam, Thermalite and may other foam boards??? No one has answered this question yet? Why not??

Do you think our local manufacturer of expanded polystyrene beadboard products would risk their company future by selling shredded chips and expanded beads expressly for the purpose of dumping it in your attic to insulate without doing some due diligence. The company is run and owned by an engineer so he should understand the potential ramifications.

When something is “different” some people cannot stand it being accepted although it’s not a proven problem. Do we have any recent data on this product in fires?? Everyone wants it covered when they see sheets of it exposed…but where’s the fire/death data about this product.

I used to do training in the wood heat industry here with a Deputy Fire Marshall. had a chance to ask him about it one day… his response: I tell them to cover it because its in the rules but there’s a lot more I like to see covered or banned from homes like foam underlay and plastic carpet, plastic kids toys, foam cushions/pillows!!

**Location of Most Mobile Home Fires
**

(in order of frequency)

**1
**

Kitchen

**2
**

Living room

**3
**

Bedroom

.

**4
**

Heating room

**5
**

Underneath
mobile home

*(The order of frequency for fatal fires: living room, kitchen,
*

exit areas, bedroom, heating room.)

**Main Causes of Mobile Home Fires
**

(in order of frequency)

**1
**

Heating system

**2
**

Electrical
distribution

**3
**

Cooking

**4
**

Arson

**5
**

Appliances/AC

From another site:

The U.S. has one of the highest fire death rates in the industrialized world.
Each year, fire kills more Americans than all natural disasters combined.
Fire is the third leading cause of accidental death in the home.
Fires most often start in the kitchen. Cooking is the leading cause of home fires in the U.S.
The second most common place where fires start in the home is in the bedroom.
Careless smoking is the leading cause of fire deaths.
Heating is the second leading cause of residential fires and the second leading cause of fire deaths

Exactly. The ceiling of the top floor provides the required protection. I would much rather see this stuff in the attic than the basement. Why? because the basement is 1)typically not vented, 2) below the living areas, and 3) has a stairwell and other passages for the hot gases to rise.

One could argue that Mario’s expanded polystyrene containers were not even part of the building materials but merely the “uninuslated” attic was being used for storage of packaging material for some home based business.

Spray foam is a different chemical altogether but it doesn’t really mater as the code requires the protection from all foamed plastics

I would not object to leaving the packaging there and insulating over top as Brian M. suggested buuuut… I would remove them simply because of the loss of insulated space. I suppose you could turn the upside down and then blow in cell. :slight_smile:

Because of the “box-like” structure of the packaging, a single unit is providing about an R2.5 to 3. With the gaps between the units the effective R value is next to nill. They are easilly removeable and doing little to keep the heat in.

Bottomline: Fire issues do not apply in this application due to protection from ceiling. Remove them and insulate with typical insulation to increase thermal performance of building evelope.

You cannot guarantee the fire will not enter the attic through penetrations, gaps, through soffit overhangs, flame spread or through a buried electrical wire that surely is buried beneath this styrene. Mind you if the roof is on fire the house is already fully engulfed.

I did one 8 weeks ago that had Many many hard blocks of insulation that I had not seen in 40 years .
It looked (Asbestous ?) that they used on Boilers and over Big glass kilns ( Dominion Glass Bottleing plant ).
The owner of the home comented that he had put it there as insulation it was left over from work 40 years ago .
I wrote it up needing further evaluation and possible needing removal if it was asbestious .
It was removed cost $5,000;00 .
Three guys no masks no home protection Garbage bags hauled it through the home 4 hours and left lots of dust.
This too me was improper and not my place to say any thing .
Both agents and home owner sat there while it was done .

… Cookie

They may have never tested it, just charged the high $ and left.

Paul:

I would argue that payng an insulation company to remove them and have to pay dumping fees would negate some of the payback for the new insualtion job. These are bulky and would need quite a few bags for removal/disposal.
We insulate to save $$$$; don’t let the Law of Diminishing Returns cut into the savings.

And this foam is an oil product that should be re-cycled (which they are in the attic now).

By using a thick layer of cellulose over them after airsealing, convective currents will be essentially stopped. Remember, Oak Ridge National Laboratory said remediation for convective losses from “fluffed long fiber glass insulation” was to blow a few inches of cellulose over the glass.

I know that, I was just giving an opinion of why they did it. Another thing about those packing peanuts I discovered is Termites love them.

Another insulation oddity I’ve seen is the window cut-outs from foam insulated steel doors glued to the inside of a concrete basement wall. TYhe gent must have worked at the door plant. This was before the days of using the cut-outs as part of the pre-made attic hatch assembly.

Thanks for the feedback guys!!

I have decided to take Paul’s advice. Remove and replace with a more conventional insulating material. Plain and simple and to the point. Personally I would not have this $hit in my attic.

Thanks again!!!

Mario:

Would you use Styrofoam as recommended by Building Science Corporation as part of their improved basement wall system. Or the foamboard system from Fiberglas for their basement system? Or the ICF foundation system? Or the foam beads as sold locally by an insulation manufacturer for 25+ years? Or the uncovered foam-sprayed “conditioned” attics which are improving the efficiency of US houses and reducing problems with attic ducted/mounted HVAC systems?

Where do we draw the line with the foam products?