That’s a very good question! If I was asked this question yesterday I would have said that there is nothing wrong with using this product.
Having done some research on this and knowing what I know today about (Styrofoam) “Polystyrene” I would not use it inside the home. I know that some builders use it on the exterior of the home to gain the required R-Value for homes built in Ontario (when constructing the shell with 2x4 wood studs)and my stucco guy recently used it to stucco an entire house that I was working on.
I will tell you as of today I will not take my left over Chinese food home in a Styrofoam package.
I can’t believe the debate on this has raged on. Good job Mario I hope everyone follows your lead. Everything that is installed in a home is scrutinized by some sort of testing procedure by some sort of 3rd party charged by some governmental or industrial entity to ensure it’s safety, then the manner and locations for installation are approved by code organizations. Then those codes are adopted by and enforced by local jurisdictions with tax dollars, for the public welfare. When anything you find during an inspection doesn’t look to you like it was made to be used for the purpose it was installed for, do yourself a favor and raise the red flag, call it out in your inspection report and save a trip to court later.
In staged artificial fire situation videos put on by various firefighting training organizations, I’ve seen draperies rage quickly and the fire climb in seconds. We have no regulations on these!!! The material that seems to sustain fires best and longest, the wood framing/sheathing, is only manufactured to quality, durability and stress/weight load standards. Not a thing said about fire safety and covering every piece of wood framing with at least 1/2 inch drywall or fire-rated drywall, yet in wood framing housing, just about every wire goes through or runs along wood somewhere. Should all wood be fire retardent treated?
The #1 area for fires to start is the kitchen. Shouldn’t all kitchens be stainless steel, right to the walls and ceilings with non combustible floors, framing & cupboards, no paint anywhere and every kitchen be sprinklered. We could save a hell of a lot of $$$ and lives if we attacked the main problem rather than the “perceived” problem that in some jurisdictions is meeting codes. Analyze the situation on facts not on “looks”.
Or do we remove and not recommend styrene insulation in all houses?
If your now afraid of styrene due to its chemical release, take a walk down the toy section aisles of Walmart or others. You get such a plethora of pungent and sickly chemical smells that you may get nauseous!! I’m am quite healthy with no known allergies/sensitivities (well too much alcohol gets me a headache the next day!!) but when I take that walk, I occasionally run into something that I can’t stand and have to move on quickly. And we’re buying these for our chidren who are more susceptiple to air borne chemicals due to their higher respiration rates in relation to their body size versus adults!!
Want to guess where some of the problems from asthma, allergies & other environmental sensitivities and cancers originate from? And for a while people were freaking out about the little amounts of asbestos in the vermiculite in their attics where they never ventured!!! They never have or will approach the exposures that those who worked in the asbestos industry for 20-30 years straight without breathing protection…period!!
We can and have created “the sky is falling” mentality on a regular basis only to find that we overreacted. About 18 years ago, a news piece mentioned lead paint on metal blind louvers. You had to be careful that in children’s rooms with the blinds, they weren’t touching the blinds, putting their hands or the louvers in their mouths, etc. I came home to find 6-7 of our windows without blinds…they were in the garbage; our kids never did any of the above as in the bedrooms, the window sills were too high for them to touch the blinds (all casement windows). I’d be afraid of placing a crib or bed near the strings of these blinds as they have been known to strangle a few children!!
Brian, A little off subject but my wife came home from Target the other day with some wood toys, wooden trains for a nephew and some jump ropes with wooden handle for the granddaughters, well when I looked at the tag they said made in china and I said to her what are you thinking!!!
Well she thought I was over reacting so I got out a lead paint swab kit and sure enough each swab turned not pink but red. I know these tests are inconclusive but it’s enough for us, the toys are going back and to the store manager I might add.
Brian, do you even do home inspections? I am commenting on these posts to help others in this industry in their endeavors to properly report on the conditions we find and avoid undue liability. The curtains and furnishings the owners install, along with the clothing, toys and vehicles and personal items and household chemicals they store and how they store them do indeed pose risks to their safety. But, as home inspectors in most cases these are things which are beyond our control and do not get commented upon in a home inspection. The components installed in the building be they part of structural, mechanical, plumbing or environmental systems should all be comprised of materials which have been accepted, rated and properly installed. If it has not been approved it shouldn’t be there. All attic insulation materials should come in containers which have approval ratings marked on them. More likely than not it won’t say tonka toys on the outside of the Styrofoam. When we see something like that we as inspectors should do what we are expected to do. Observe and report.
So if a polystyrene foam board insulation /foam cooler / cathedral vent shute(all made from the same styrene) manufacturer takes some scrap materials and shreds it or sells just the surplus expanded beads as a cheaper insulation to be poured into walls and attics that are protected by at least 1/2 inch gyproc or plaster (local codes), this practice should be outlawed??? This has been happening in my area for 25-30 years with a reputable manufacturer (city of 350,000) with no reports of problems.
Everyone seems to see the cartons…locally if they were shredded or in loose bead form, they would be known as insulation.
If they arrived at the josite labelled for the application, had met applicable standards and are installed in accordance with codes of the local jurisidiction then AND ONLY THEN is it acceptable. How do you know nothing has been added/altered in the chemical composition of the observed material? How about this, next time take some down and see if it holds a flame. Anthing that lights easily and doesn’t extinguish itself rapidly probably doesn’t belong in an attic. Just cause they been doin it wrong for years don’t make it right. Really you keep changing the subject, go back and look at the pictures in the original post on this thread.
By the way, locally, I see a fair amount (1-2 houses in 20) of polystyrene board installed in partially finished basements that has not been covered as required by code with 1/2" drywall or covering of similar fire rating. I always call it since it is in a living area. How much of it gets covered as a result of the inspection? “Not much” is my guess unless the new buyer decides to finish the area. If this product was such a major problem in fires, authorities and insurance companies would have campaigns to ban its use or have people protect it properly.
This is not the product killing people in fires!!! The local copmpany makes products for all areas of the house: http://www.truefoam.com/
A full 5" of foam in all above ground walls. My God!! Tear the house down!! Its dangerous!! In some houses it can be all around you. Under the floor, in the walls and in the attic.
Oh!! By the way, the company has been in business since 1968…10 years longer than I thought. And styrene has bee used in buildings since 1951.
For Mario, if your still following this thread: http://www.truefoam.com/styropack.html
The seafood may still taste quite good because it was kept cold due to the packaging.
Not worth the effort anymore, I’ll let you guys who failed to pay attention suffer the consequences. Hopefully some understand now that building products require an approval process and homeowners with good intentions sometimes make mistakes. That is part of the job, to make purchasers aware of safety and health concerns and improper construction practices.
Well, Brian, ran into something today that I couldn’t believe as we were talking about the problems with styrene in the past week.
I was was doing an inspection for the son of an old acquaintance/co-worker from my days working as an energy analyst/advisor with the province. Lifted up some thin fiberglass batts in the attic to find two 1" layers of polystyrene semi-rigid foam board (EPS) cut to size and laid between the ceiling joists!!
This was a foam board (looked like type 1) that has been accepted by the AHJ for use under siding, behind drywall and many of the uses shown at the TRUFOAM website posted earlier.
What are the opinions of others?? The ceiling is 1/2" drywall.
Could be “only in the eyes of the beholder”. The gent I used to work with has been with the gov. energy group for 33-35 years now. When I described the situation he pretty well agreed with me; he’s seen the shredded or bead insulation for years now and, of course, is quite familiar with it.
Now if those boards were shredded because they didn’t meet dimension specs, no other chemical difference, would that material not be alright? Or if they used the same beads, just because they were surplus from an expansion run, would they not be alright?
I inspected a ‘century farm’ house about a year ago and the attic was mostly filled with hay. There was also the top half of a store mannequin sitting there which scared the crap out of me. I believe that this added at least R-4 to the attic. :shock:
