Inspection Agreement for Mold Testing

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1

Originally Posted By: mrose
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Hey Guys,


I request the assistance of any inspector who is performing mold testing for their clients.

Specifically my interest is finding an inspection agreement that shields the inspector sampling for mold from as much liability as possible. You are encouraged to stay on topic and not explore the merits of testing or not testing.

Presently I am not offering mold sampling but will be in the near future.

Also I am engaged in putting together a 2-3 hour seminar program at the technical college where I teach in the continuing education division.

In closing kindly direct me to a useful mold testing inspection agreement or present a copy of the one you are using.

Thanks in advance for your help.

--
Mike Rose
Cornerstone Home Inspection Co. LLC
Lawrenceville, GA

www.cornerstonehomeinspect.com

2

Originally Posted By: kbliss
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Mike


Take a look at this site http://www.reliablelab.com/ they have an agreement.


Kurt Bliss

3

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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You will quickly learn what the terms “legal but not enforcable” and “Self-serving” mean.


You say to stay on topic, but without discussing the realities of mold and the current status (and liabilities) of mold sampling and testing, you are whistling in the dark.

Mold testing is not about making money, it's about peoples health and well-being. Too many bogus mold inspections are causing folks more harm than good, and bringing discredit to the industry. If there were real standards, or established levels (like Radon), the story might be different.

To your question, all of our inspection agreements have nifty little clauses limiting liability, accountability, time to sue, etc. These are nice things to have, but smart lawyers shred them where real damage has been caused.

The FIRST thing I do when presenting to folks, and the dreaded "mold" topic comes up. is to explain the realities of vicarious liability to the agents. They already know what it is. I then ask them to MAKE SURE that the person testing for mold had the proper E&O insurance, absent of mold exclusions. Most inspectors, if they even carry E&O, have mold exclusions in their policies. For the referring parties, this means that they may be personally on the hook, along with the mold tester, for damages. You see, it doesnt mean squat what you have in your agreement. In the end, if someone can prove you nevr had the credentials to offer the service in the first place, you could find yourself in criminal court for fraud.

For my own peace of mind, I WILL help the client, if they are hell-bent on testing. This is for things we can actually see. I take the samples, follow the protocol, and charge to transport the samples to a Cornell University testing lab. The client writes a check directly to Cornell at $25 per sample tested, for services. Communication is between the lab and the client. I am out of the picture. This is how I limit my exposure, and still provide a service to the customer.

So, what are your qualifications, may I ask, to teach such a course. Are you a CIH? If so, you should know this stuff. You should also know the EPA and CDC position statements relative to testing. Most importantly, their positions as to WHEN it is valid to test, and for what specific purpose.

Did I stay on topic?

4

Originally Posted By: Robert Patterson
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“Mold Testers” icon_evil.gif


But that's your decision to unnecessarily cost a client money.

Bob

5

Originally Posted By: kbliss
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe


I understand your point but if you are doing an air sample and have invested in the equipment don`t you deserve to get paid for the service above and beyond the cost of the sample and transport?


Kurt Bliss

6

Originally Posted By: mrose
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Hey Joe and the rest of you out there,


Joe wanted to know what qualifications I have to be teaching a 3 hour course related to the toxic mold issues.

First you must understand the purpose and scope of the training. It is not my interest or intent to turn loose a hoard of instant experts.

The focus will be related to recognizing conditions, red flags, which are relevant to anyone involved in a residential real estate transaction. The list includes realtors, appraisers, home inspectors, buyer and seller just to name a few. Joe as you so deftly alluded to, everyone involved could be invited to a litigated mold issue. You know the lawyers slogan "Mold is Gold".

I have taken a mold certification course sponsored by Allstate Home Inspection and Household Environmental Testing Company, Ltd. This is Rick Finigan's group. I am not avowing that I am an expert only someone who has done considerable research on the subject. Hopefully my presentation will assist people in sifting through the "information overload" which exists.

In closing becoming educated on this topic is the best defense whether you choose to performing sampling or advise people to have sampling done.

Best regards,

Mike

--
Mike Rose
Cornerstone Home Inspection Co. LLC
Lawrenceville, GA

www.cornerstonehomeinspect.com

7

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Air sampling must follow a specific protocol to be valid. And what do the results tell you? That mold is present? No kidding… mold is everywhere. So, testing the outside air is critical to form a baseline. Will mold be present inside? You bet, in most cases. Again, so what? Absent of ratified standards accepted by the EPA and CDC, its all hocus pocus.


So someone bought an air sampler. Now they are going to charge some poor sap for their (Inspector's) decision to purchase it. The CDC and EPA is quite clear: if you see it or smell it you have it. Find it, remopve the moisture problem, clean it up. Do not waste time or money on testing. That's the real protocol.

I'll ask the informed Mr. Patterson to chime in on the issue.

But back to the topic: there isn't a disclaimer in the world that is bullet-proof. In the case of mold testers, there is little protection any disclaimer can provide. That's the plain truth... Mike, do you have insurance?

8

Originally Posted By: jhagarty
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Deleted

–
Joseph Hagarty


HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.
9

Originally Posted By: mrose
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe,


Your opinion is appreciated but as stated in my original post I merely wish to review some inspection agreements use with mold test.

I understand everyone has different opinions as to whether they will conduct testing or not. That is up to each individual.

In conclusion I am simply looking for a sample of mold inspection agreements being used by inspectors performing mold sampling.

Best regards,

Mike

--
Mike Rose
Cornerstone Home Inspection Co. LLC
Lawrenceville, GA

www.cornerstonehomeinspect.com

10

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi Guys,


The best post I have read any where on the subject of mold testing comes from Nick Farrella of New England Labs in Maine I will drop him an E-mail and see if we can get him to contribute here, I know he is selling his company (aren’t we all) but he has the best knowledge of anyone I have read. and his posts else where have been very fair.


Gerry

11

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe H,


Why wouldn't you simply state, as I do, that a substance which appears to be mold was suspected/seen, and recommend that the customer follow EPA and CDC guidelines for remediation? Both of these governmental orgs frown on testing except in specific instances, and advocate removal of moisture and clean up of the mold and the only rule. Again, their official position is not to test. I dont make the client sign a "disclaimer" if they refuse mold testing. This is ridiculous. I point it out in the report and referr them to the governmental authorities on the subject. Every AHJ policy and position posted on the subject takes pretty much the same stance. The mold needs to be remediated, not tested. The only true standard out there is that testing is a waste of money, unless it has been recommended by a health care professional as part of an investigation into sick house syndrome.

This is the trouble I have with all of this crap. The EPA and CDC are about to come down pretty heavily on these "added services" offered by three-day experts in mold testing.

Gerry,

As to Nick Ferala posts on IN.com.... he seemed to have gotten his a$$ kicked a bit and stopped posting. He has a definite bent on the subject, as he operates a lab and advocates testing for mold.


Guys,

Sorry if I'm so down on this, but the mold scare was invented by testing labs and lawyers as a way to make money. HIs were sucked into it. It plays to people's base fears. There is no more mold in the world today than there was when we were growing up. None of us died from it. Our moms and dads (and grandmothers) got rid of it. A little bleach, soap, and water went a very long way. When the scare reaches proportions where folks have burned their houses down, things have gotten way out of hand. Until there are standards for acceptable and unacceptable levels of mold, types of mold and definitive effects on the human anatomy, true testing methodologies and standards, and how to truly interpret the test results (beyond simple identification), tests are meaningless. Every RE office I go to is all "molded out" from the presentations and "education" they receive. I referr the agent to the EPA and CDC sites for current information. I tell them to be wary of mold inspectors and testers. I also tell them to make damn sure that the person testing has insurance which allows them to do so. Funny, with all the rush for legislation, I dont hear the ASHI and NAHI inspectors trying to limit testing of mold to the EPA and CDC guidelines and require true accreditation to practice; not these overnight experts we see looking to capitalize on the fear factor.



- Joe F

12

Originally Posted By: chorne
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Hi guys,


Most or all E&O companies do not offer coverage for mold in their
policies. Is it worth it to carry an additional policy for mold(if you can find one) to do mold testing? Also add more liability for litigation?

Carla

13

Originally Posted By: gbell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe


Why do you feel that everyone should feel the same as you do about mold? You are very adamant about stating your position, must be that New York thing in you. But this is America that we live in and each person can do as they see fit. I really don't want to debate the mold issue. I have made my choice and will conduct myself accordingly. I just don't understand how and why you must write comments such as your last.

--
Greg Bell
Bell Inspection Service

14

Originally Posted By: jhagarty
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Deleted

–
Joseph Hagarty


HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.
15

Originally Posted By: Robert Patterson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Greg,


Joe F's post is right on. Mold testers are pure fraud scammers who are going to raise the insurance on us all and buy a lot of attorneys a new mansion with a new Mercedes. If you obtain the ACGIH guidelines and do a real study on the situation you will see very clearly what is wrong with this. Unless you have a medical background in infectious disease or complete Bioaerosols training you are overstepping your bounds. I took the Allstate course, it is nothing more than a short course on how to scam the public. Can you intelligently discuss test results with doctors, CIH's, CIE's and defend your expertise and findings in court? Do you know that biocides are not recommended for mold remediation and why? Do you know why settling plates are not recommended for testing? Do you know why Stachybotris is rarely found in testing? etc. etc. etc. As an independent businessman you have the right to do as you please, but be very aware of the fact that I for one am very vocal about (and can back up my statements) about the scam that "mold testers" are putting on the public.

BTW I have an extensive medical background (not a physician), training in infectious disease control and mold training and have acted as an expert witness in two environmental court cases.

Bob ![icon_twisted.gif](upload://xjO326gspdTNE5QS3UTl0a0Rtvy.gif)

16

Originally Posted By: ismetaniuk
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


This membership was a big waste of my time!

–
Igor


Top To Bottom Inspections


Glen Spey, NY

17

Originally Posted By: chorne
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Thanks Igor,


I agree, we have enough liability just inspecting houses.

at this point I would rather leave mold testing to the mold experts

Carla

18

Originally Posted By: gbell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I understand how some of you feel. I am sure there are some people out there who hard sell mold testing at each inspection. In that regard I agree that it is not above board. But I also belive that there are cases where testing can be a benefit. Most of my testing is for clearance after the remediation. One question for all of you, since all e&o does not cover mold how is this going to increase our cost of insurance? If there is no coverage how can there be any claims to hike the premiums.


I guess we can say that we agree to disagree. That is another thing that makes this such a great place to live.

--
Greg Bell
Bell Inspection Service

19

Originally Posted By: chorne
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Hi Greg,


I think that the E&O premiums go up anyway because people can still sue.

There was just a case in NH, The inspector stated that a mold specialist should look at the roof sheathing where there was some type of mold,
they are now sueing the Realtor, The inspector, and the Appraiser because there isn't any mold insurance anywhere. Oh, and their home owners will not pay for the problem either
I supose 9/11 doesn't help, have you received a notice about terrorism
coverage?


Carla

20

Originally Posted By: mrose
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Hey Guys,


FYI here is a copy of some recent posts from the ASHI forum regarding home inspectors and their experience.


Topic: EPA Mold Guide (3 of 4), Read 75 times
Conf: Environmental & Hazardous Materials
From: Scott Patterson scott@traceinspections.com
Date: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 05:11 PM
That stuff is bad. A couple of days ago, I was assisting two other guys in an inspection of a home that the owners had moved out of because of the mold. We pulled a section of carpet back and it was black with mold. We found growths on the carpet itself, kind of looked like a "Fuzzy-Wuzzy".

Really bad stuff. I found the source of the moisture and the samples were taken. We were in and out of the house for about two hours. We all had headaches, one of the guys developed a rash on his arm and this was just going back to the office.

Today we are all sick with flu like symptoms, I just got back from the doctor with horse pills for my sinus infection.

Yep, I can attest that mold will make you sick.

The sad thing is we all had full face respirators in the truck and did not think we needed them!


Scott Patterson
Mississippi License 105
Ridgeland, MS (Jackson, MS)
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Topic: EPA Mold Guide (4 of 4), Read 77 times
Conf: Environmental & Hazardous Materials
From: Jerry Peck jerry@isa-home-inspections.com
Date: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 05:33 PM
On 2/19/2003 5:11:20 PM, Scott Patterson wrote:
snip
>The sad thing is we all had
>full face respirators in the
>truck and did not think we
>needed them!

Similar inspection with me on Monday night (not doing mold as I am a charter member of the DDMG, but the source of the moisture is my bag).

I could taste the mold in the back part of the house (where I could see it growing on the walls. Looked at it with my 50 and 100x microscopes I keep with me (yep, 'suspected mold' I wrote - but there was no doubt, it was mold all right).

I kept thinking about my respirator in the van (repeat after Scott and me - in the van - ), put did not want to be walking around her house with my respirator on - not trying to induce shock and all.

You could see the fuzzy growth with my 50x microscope, and make out each stem with the 100x one. I had just recently done a presentation to the American Indoor Air Quality Council - South Florida (last Thursday) on construction defects (explained and referred to the DDMG and that I don't do mold), anyway, so I had all these nice pretty posters with various types of mold on them, yep I could identify that it was ... no, I did not *identify* the type of mold, I'm not crazy, I even kept my reporting to *suspected mold*.

Off the record, there is no doubt, it was MOLD,

I saw it.

I could taste it in the air.

I could smell it.

There was no doubt in my mind, it was MOLD.

But, being a DDMG member, I called the *professionals* (industrial hygienists and micro biologists they are).

Yep, left with a head ache too.

Mold, it's alive, it's real, and I am susceptible to it. (Not everyone is, and the concentrations and mold spore counts which effect people vary from person to person, and there are no exposure limits - it's a personal thing, but it is real. To whatever extent you, the individual, cannot tolerate it, anyway.)

Next time, I'm wearing my respirator.

Jerry Peck
South Florida

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--
Mike Rose
Cornerstone Home Inspection Co. LLC
Lawrenceville, GA

www.cornerstonehomeinspect.com