More information available in this month’s In-Sprectrum release.
Click here for more information.
More information available in this month’s In-Sprectrum release.
Click here for more information.
Interesting how OntarioACHI wants the NACHI inspectors to come to their site .
Are they trolling for members , I wonder why they keep trying to get NACHI members to come to their site .
The OACHI membership continues to shrink .
This was posted ion The NACHI site earlier to day .
Thanks for the info .
You are welcome.
I have received information from our contacts at the Ministry of government and consumer Services that confirms the Minister, Hon. Marie-France Lalonde, will be introducing the Government Bill to the Legislative Assembly tomorrow (Thursday). This is inline with the information we posted in the October Newsletter. (Link in earlier post from Pat)
For those who are interested, the announcement from the minister in the morning can be seen live from 9am at http://www.youtube.com/premierofontario
Sessions of the Legislature are also broadcast on cable TV across Ontario (please consult your local cable listings) and live streaming is available on the Queen’s Park Webcasts page.
We will of course be keeping Inspectors in touch with the process through our usual communications.
Watch www.youtube.com/premierofontario at 9 am Tomorrow. More later.
Interesting thanks for posting this on the open NACHI site .
From this morning’s announcement. Further information can be found here
One BIG step closer…
Now the hard work starts
First reading completed. Second reading will likely happen next week.
Some thing else to think about that could cause Ontario Licensing difficulties .
November 2016 Michael MastromatteoNews
PEO will be monitoring the fate of a private member’s bill in the Ontario legislature that, if passed, would require all home inspectors in the province to be licensed.
A number of professional engineers perform residential home inspections as part of their practice and there is concern these members might object to a requirement for external certification and licensing.
Bill 165, an act to regulate home inspectors, was introduced as a private member’s bill by Liberal MPP Han Dong (Trinity-Spadina). The bill received first reading in February 2016.
While home inspection is not considered part of traditional engineering practice, there is no standard scope of work available for the service. The field is largely unregulated, despite the existence of provincial and national home inspection associations that offer specialized training in the area.
Although it’s rare for a private member’s bill to become law, Ontario’s Ministry of Government and Consumer Services appears committed to greater regulation of the home inspection industry.
In August, Minister of Government and Consumer Services Marie-France Lalonde said the bill would require home inspectors to be licensed and set minimum standards for contracts and home inspection reports. The legislation, if passed, would also establish an association to administer and enforce licensing and regulations.
The ministry estimates there are about 1500 home inspectors in Ontario. Some PEO members who do home inspections might object to the need to be licensed by the Ontario Association of Home Inspectors.
Cliff Knox, P.Eng., PEO’s manager of enforcement, says the regulator has been monitoring the situation with respect to home inspections.
“There haven’t been any inquiries from members to date regarding this, but this could change when the government and consumer services ministry starts its broader consultation on a proposed regulatory regime and any enabling legislation,” Knox says. “It’s been suggested that PEO take part in the consultation, in case there is any jurisdictional issue with how the regulatory system is implemented.”
Knox says one area of concern is a proposed practice standard for an inspection. PEO wants assurance that the standard is limited to reporting observed conditions only, and does not provide an opinion on structural issues or the performance of mechanical systems that might fall within the practice of professional engineering.
“A second issue relates to the qualifications for licensure, and whether a P.Eng. licence would exempt an applicant from any or all requirements,” Knox adds.
Alan Carson, owner of Carson Dunlop, an engineering consulting firm specializing in residential and commercial building inspections, says that while some engineers might be put off by the requirement for home inspection certification, there is some value in regulating the entire industry and bringing consistency to the qualifications of home inspectors.
“There is no specific discipline in engineering–be it electrical, mechanical, chemical, civil–that focuses on residential construction and that takes the broad perspective that applies to home inspection,” Carson told Engineering Dimensions. “We hire and we train engineers all the time, and engineers have a terrific advantage because they have a technical mind, they have proven their ability to train and absorb and comprehend technical concepts. They do have a leg up, but it’s just the specific skill set and knowledge set is not, at least to my knowledge, taught in any engineering programs.”
Graham Clarke, P.Eng., head of the Toronto-based Clarke Engineering, and a former home inspector with Carson Dunlop, says that while greater regulation of home inspectors is welcome, it still might pose problems for engineers in the business. “There are a number of licensed professional engineers working as home inspectors, and I have wondered about the ability of the provincial government to prohibit a P.Eng. from performing an inspection of a residential structure without another licence.”
Graham believes the question of home inspectors actually performing engineering depends on the type of inspection they carry out. “The practice of home inspection neither precludes nor requires the use of engineering principles,” he says. “The actual methods used to evaluate the home are left to the home inspector. In a typical home inspection, the evaluation would not use engineering principles. An engineer, however, might use engineering principles, including past engineering experience, to evaluate the systems and components of a home.”
Clarke is concerned about a potential conflict for PEO in the event home inspectors are required to be licensed. “I can see the potential for upcoming legislation to prohibit any individual who does not have a home inspection licence from performing a home inspection. And that would mean a holder of a Certificate of Authorization would be legally prevented from performing an evaluation of a home as a part of their engineering practice unless the engineer also held a home inspection licence. I think that PEO should ensure that a situation does not arise wherein professional engineers are prevented from inspecting, either in whole or in part, any or all of the systems of a house.”
The Act regulating the Home Inspection Profession will likely go through the three readings and committee stage over the next 6 weeks. It is unlikely that the Government of Ontario will fall in that time frame.
Once the act gets royal assent the process then moves to the Ministry and doesn’t rely on the elected Assembly.
The process is better explained here: http://ontla.on.ca/lao/en/media/laointernet/pdf/bills-and-lawmaking-background-documents/how-bills-become-law-en.pdf
Here are the details of the proceedings (Transcript from Hansards)
Introduction of Bills
Putting Consumers First Act (Consumer Protection Statute Law Amendment), 2016 / Loi de 2016 donnant la priorité aux consommateurs (modifiant des lois en ce qui concerne la protection du consommateur)
Madame Lalonde moved first reading of the following bill:
Bill 59, An Act to enact a new Act with respect to home inspections and to amend various Acts with respect to financial services and consumer protection / Projet de loi 59, Loi édictant une nouvelle loi concernant les inspections immobilières et modifiant diverses lois concernant les services financiers et la protection du consommateur.
The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Agreed? Agreed.
First reading agreed to.
The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member for a short statement.
L’hon. Marie-France Lalonde: La protection des consommateurs à la maison et sur le marché est une priorité pour notre gouvernement. C’est pourquoi je suis fière de déposer ce projet de loi qui, si adopté, introduit une nouvelle loi concernant les inspections immobilières et modifie diverses lois concernant les services financiers et la protection du consommateur.
This bill is part of our government initiative to increase consumer protection. The bill, if passed, amends a number of acts and enacts a new act in relation to door-to-door sales, home inspections and alternative financial services.
First Reading passed. (Formality)
Second Reading of Bill 59, An Act to enact a new Act with respect to home inspections and to amend various Acts with respect to financial services and consumer protection. Hon. Mme Lalonde, slated for November 14th. (The house does not sit November 7 to 10)
Thank you for posting!
Roy, Good information. Here’s my comments on the salient points.
I see no problem in the latter part for the Home Inspection regulation. Engineers are not allowed to install and maintain electrical systems unless they have an Electrician’s License. Their prior engineering experience might have included electrical experience but it doesn’t qualify them to be electricians. If an Engineer wants to be an Electrician they have to get an Electrician’s License. Similarly if they want to provide a home Inspection, they should be required to get a Home Inspectors License.
If I as a home Inspector find a structure concern I recommend they get further evaluation by an engineer . When I was getting solar collectors installed on my home I had to have an engineer Check the roof and its supports .
I as a home inspector could not do it.
All good point’s Roy, but let’s look at your position.
You say “Gee Home inspectors are the same.” and “Same thing for home inspectors if they want to be an electrician”
We agree, if a Home Inspector (or an Engineer) want to become an Electrician, then it is right that they train in the relevant skills and apply for their license.
You go on to suggest you disagree with the same rights and benefits applying to the Home Inspection profession. While you have the right to disagree, let’s look at your position as to why and see if it’s a valid disagreement.
First you say “Engineers where the first home inspectors” Let’s look at this statement. According to some sources on the internet (1) (2)
“In North America, t**he early 1970s saw the creation of a new industry when buyers began hiring general building contractors to perform pre-purchase inspections on homes they wanted to buy. As the home inspection industry grew it soon became apparent that the depth of knowledge required to properly evaluate a home’s systems and components was beyond the capability of most general contractors. Slowly the term “Contractor’s Inspection” was dropped in favor of “Home Inspector” as they were now looked upon as industry experts in performing inspections to confirm the current condition a home’s overall health.”
This clearly identifies that the first home inspectors were in fact general contractors, and it soon became clear that the extent of a Home Inspection was beyond their capabilities.
I don’t see any mention of “Engineers” here.
You then go on to say “all the first ASHI inspectors where engineers”
ASHI was formed in 1976, and had a board of director of around 50 members. Most of these were not in fact Engineers, but general contractors. Names like
Heine, Falcone, Walker, Passaro, Gallioto, Byrne, Goldring, Monohon, Williams, O’Connel and Cox (to name a few) were on the original board and had been operatring as GC’s for a number of years prior to the formation of ASHI. Some were indeed engineers, others were not.
You conclued by saying “I think there is not much chance telling engineers they can not do a home inspection”
I personally think, that if someone is not qualified to perform a Home Inspection to the standards laid down in regulation that requires a license to practice, it makes not a whit of difference what the person’s profession is.
If I as a home Inspector find something wrong with the HVAC system I certainly wouldn’t recommend an Engineer to inspect further and fix it. If I found something wrong with the Plumbing, again, I certainly wouldn’t recommend an Engineer to inspect further and fix it. If I found something wrong with the Electrical system, the first place I would go to would be a Licensed Electrician. An engineer would be farthest from my mind in all of these cases.
You may ask why? Because like Plumbers, Electricians, Gas fitters and HVAC “specialists” a Structural Engineer is a specialist. They certainly know more about structural engineering principles than we as Inspector ever will.
But just because they are Structural Engineers doesn’t mean that know as much as a Professional home Inspector in many of the other areas of a Home Inspection.
To suggest that an Engineer could perform a home Inspection without proper training in the areas that they are not skilled in is naive, and frankly dangerous for the future of the Profession. This is especially the case as not all engineers carrying the term P.Eng. are trained equally. (3)
If an Engineer realises in order to perform a Professional, competent home Inspection they need training over and above their engineering experience, they instantly recognise the need to be distinguished from their counterparts that have not had that training.
At that juncture, no argument on the planet could defend them for not having a Home Inspectors License, any more than a similar argument would allow them to perform electrical work without an electricians License.
You close with your own post in the thread
“If I as a home Inspector find a structure concern I recommend they get further evaluation by an engineer . When I was getting solar collectors installed on my home I had to have an engineer Check the roof and its supports .
I as a home inspector could not do it.”
It is commendable that you recognise your limitations and readily accept that as Inspectors we are generalists and need to be able to refer to a more specialised source.
It is sad that you cannot recognise in your positions, that perhaps Engineers are not the “knowledge of all things in a Home Inspection” and that just maybe, they would need extra training to do the stuff we do that is outside of their scope of learning.
If you did, you would realise, that it’s easy to say “No” to an engineer doing a Home Inspection.
It’s done like this:
(1) At least one source suggest the Home Inspection profession started in the 1950’s in North America.
(2) In the U.K. Home Inspections have been performed since the great depression by Surveyors belonging to the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors itself founded in 1868.
(3) An engineer in Ontario is denoted by the designation P.Eng. which is administered and enforced by the Professional Engineers of Ontario (PEO) in order to attain P.Eng one can either become a civil engineer, Structural Engineer, Electrical Engineer or Computer Engineer. Civil engineering is a broad subject which covers structural engineering. It’s a first degree course offered in universities which results in a bachelor degree. On the other hand, Structural engineering is a subject under civil engineering and is taught to students taking up the course, it is also a specialization which leads to a master’s degree or a doctorate. Electrical and Computer Engineering are specialist areas in their own right but following qualification and registration with the PEO each one is allowed to legally call themselves an “Engineer” in Ontario.
Looks like the OAHI Pr165 is in the process of being repealed.
Copy of the new Bill noted above. See Part VIII
Thanks for info Claude much appreciated