Virtual Inspection -
You are walking into a bathroom and look in the shower stall and notice their is a “Recess” light above the shower area. The area is about 7’ 8" high and they have a normal incandes. light bulb in it…that says 100W
So…what are the questions that should be running through your mind on this situation?
P.S. Feel free to post ANYTHING about this even if you feel it may not apply directly.
They like to take pictures :o
Is it rated for a wet area and is the fixture rated for a 100watt bulb?
The 100w lamp should be enclosed behind a lense. Most enclosed fixtures UL listed for this application cannot support this high a wattage of lamp.
NEC ref: 410.4 references this area but not recessed cans. BTW… I would like one of those talking light bulbs to put in the lamp next to my Billy Bass. :lol:
Should be a reflector bulb. Is there a shower?
OK…going furthur…Yes, their is a shower and the recess can is a normal IC rated can.
Sorry…Virtual Inspection…NO pictures…just making you THINK
Fixture and bulb was upgraded by the security system guy so his camera would have plenty of light!!
Erby…I installed that CAM…and it is a low LUX version…I can see everything fine…
Rest assured. Nobody will be putting a camera in your shower!
Paul
Got me thinking. I’m not up on my electrical as I would like to be, but the fixture should be enclosed water/vapor proof w/ shatter-proof lense.
Help me out if I’m missing something else, because I run into a lot of these installations in the high-end residential market.
You are going to have a hard time finding a code issue here. There is the labelling problem of the wrong style bulb but ceiling mounted cans are allowed in the tub space. You can call this a wet location and require a “wet” trim but you will have trouble proving it is with code language until the 2005 code cycle was accepted in your area. (that was this week here so there are no existing bathrooms covered yet)
wattage is too high for in a shower, if not enclosed water vapor,mist, may cause the bulb to burst?
**2005 NEC’s Take On It
Location, Damp.
**Locations protected from weather and
not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but
subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such
locations include partially protected locations under canopies,
marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations,
and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture,
such as some basements, some barns, and some coldstorage
warehouses.
[FONT=Times-Roman][size=2]**[FONT=Times-Bold][size=2]D) Bathtub and Shower Areas.
**No parts of cordconnected
luminaires (.xtures), chain-, cable-, or cordsuspended-
luminaires (.xtures), lighting track, pendants, or
ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a
zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft)
vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall
threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the
zone directly over the tub or shower stall. Luminaires
lighting .xtures) located in this zone shall be listed for
damp locations, or listed for wet locations where subject to
shower spray.
2002 NEC’s Take On It
**[FONT=Times-Bold][size=2]II. Luminaire (Fixture) Locations
410.4 Luminaires (Fixtures) in Specific locations.
(A) Wet and Damp Locations.
**Luminaires (fixtures) installed
in wet or damp locations shall be installed so that
water cannot enter or accumulate in wiring compartments,
lampholders, or other electrical parts. All luminaires (fixtures)
installed in wet locations shall be marked, “Suitable
for Wet Locations.” All luminaires (fixtures) installed in
damp locations shall be marked, “Suitable for Wet Locations”
or “Suitable for Damp Locations.”
**(B) Corrosive Locations.
**
Luminaires (fixtures) installed
in corrosive locations shall be of a type suitable for such
locations.
**[FONT=Times-Bold][size=2]Location, Damp.
**Locations protected from weather and
not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but
subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such
locations include partially protected locations under canopies,
marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations,
and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture,
such as some basements, some barns, and some coldstorage
warehouses.
“Such As” only refers to examples…
It is MY stance and opinion and it is totally fine if someone does not agree with me…never said I was the HOLY grail of the NEC…lol…debate is welcome.
Now…my opinion in the 2002 or clarrified in the 2005 is that the shower location is a potential location for moisture and damp conditions…I would prefer a vapor trim…and properly wattaged bulb as greg is correct on the bulb and most of the time most IC rated cans are 75W or less…could be higher but again with a NORMAL bulb in it…you should be able to see the wattage rating…this is why I said a normal bulb.
Personally…HI’s are not code inspectors…I would have a problem with a light that is only 7’8" off the floor…and has an open bulb in it…and since it has a shower…and nothing mentioned about an exhaust fan…assuming someone would ask that…we have moisture build up…and again in my opinion in THIS example…I want a vapor trim on it…that makes a normal IC can comply with a damp location classification…based on the trim.
Agreed…a Recess Can can clearly be over that area…JUST wanted HI’s to think a bit…
Again…these opinions expressed my ME…are from ME…not anyone else…
I feel this is why the 2005 has made an attempt to clarrify…kinda the point of my most…having greg point it out is cheating…lol…your supposed to answer last greg…tehehe[/size][/size][/size][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/size][/FONT]
This has always been a bone with a lot of inspectors. Before 2005 you could have a sconce or can in the shower with no special trim and you had to twist the code around to find a violation.
In your example the biggest flaw is a non-reflector bulb in a can and that is anywhere. Reflector bulbs radiate most of the heat out of the can. A regular bulb lets it collect in the can. A can that will take a 250w reflector (heat) bulb will probably thermal out with a regular 100, if it is IC. If it is non-IC you might really have a problem.
I support any HI that would agree with my example…we are talking safety concerns and without knowing the details of the recess light…and know the wrong bulb is enclosed…and based on it’s location and like in some cases the HI’s are in…with very little details…
I don’t have any problem twisting the NEC to call this a damp location…and would like to see a vapor trim on it to make it approved for damp locations in my mind…again we can’t all agree…nothing is so black and white…
Paul
Most recessed light fixtures are rated for damp locations without the ‘shower trim’. With the 2005 NEC in mind, I as an inspector and a person with over 25 years in the industry… and maybe a tad of common sense would like to say, erring on the safe side, that in small bathrooms with lower ceilings, that the type of fixture and lamp installed does make a difference. The condensation/moisture can create a problem with open lamps in those fixtures, even if the fixture is listed for the location. As Greg has mentioned, a lamp listed for that location is a very good idea.
Not in the 2005 NEC Pierre ( 2005 clarrify’s it better…that was my intent to blur the line between 2002 and 2005 and common sense…many times the HI needs to see in GREY…not CODE black and white ) …but my question was to educate…
Guys…( and mostly Electricians )…these posts are directed to help educate the HI…not other electricians…as opinions will vary and NEC code interpretations may vary…but I have (50) IC rated cans that say nothing on them about rated for Damp Locations…so assuming will not work…
Anyway…the POST was directed at helping them try to define the problems they may see…and then I gave my opinion…WHICH BTW still stands…and if I am the AHJ in the location…my opinion will stand…
Clearly I stated the unit must be rated for the location…but I did not state that in the virtual question…I wanted to PULL that and other information out of HI’s…
I now see what you were trying to accomplish…sorry for butting in.
NOOO…you did not butt in my friend…NOOO…we SOOO need you to BUTT in…was just saying what I was trying to achieve…it is very hard to do things like virtual inspections online…still trying to figure out how to do it and make them think is all…
YOU most certainly SHOULD butt in…always BUTT in…