Split strands

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1

Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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Anyone ever see someone split the strands of a ground wire to make them fit in a busbar?




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2

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Yes, and it is not code compliant.

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3

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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Bob Badger wrote:
Yes, and it is not code compliant.


Why? What would be the downside?

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4

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Downside.


Not code compliant.

To answer what I think you mean---nothing.

Mike P.

5

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Also note that multi feed to breaker 3 & 5 are on the same leg.


Mike P.

6

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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The downside would be that one ‘set’ of the strands could come loose in its terminal, providing an inadequate grounding path for that size conductor through the remaining strands in the other terminal should the need for this grounding path arise.


Also, I am sure you noticed, neutral and grounds in the same terminal, multiple tapped breaker (looks like it anyway).

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Jerry Peck
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7

Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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Not sure what you meant by the remark on 3 and 5…#4 has a double tapped breaker, which was noted.


I think the view is skewed and you are seeing shadows of wires for the neutral/grounded connex from the flash and light near the panel. They were each in seperate terminals. Lots of homeowner wiring in this home…lots of “evaluate by a licensed electrician” remarks in the report.

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8

Originally Posted By: tallen
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I believe that is breaker #8


breakers are # as follows or I could be wrong.


1,2
3,4
5,6
7,8
9,10
etc.

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9

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Quote:

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10

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Thanxs.


Kind of hard for me to point something out when I do not know which side of the panel that I am on. ![icon_redface.gif](upload://f7DX2EWhmUfsDapWaYT3oJHMCj1.gif)

I meant #6 & #8.

Mike P.

11

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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[quote=“jpeck”]The downside would be that one ‘set’ of the strands could come loose in its terminal, providing an inadequate grounding path for that size conductor through the remaining strands in the other terminal should the need for this grounding path arise.quote]


Jerry, Isn't it more likely that one terminal could come loose than two? If all the strands are under one terminal (as they should be) and that one comes loose you have zero protection. But if the strands are split to two different terminals and one comes loose, atleast you have protection up to the capacity of the remaining intact wires. Isn't some better than none?

Also wouldn't the total surface contact area between the terminal bar and the grounding wire be greater if they are split, resulting in a cooler (not this ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif) kind of cooler ) connection

I don't really see why its a problem. What am I missing?

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12

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Paul,


Would you accept seeing feeder conductors with some strands cut off so that a larger size conductor will fit into a too small terminal?

How about if those other strands were not cut off, but were installed in another lug? Would you accept that?

Please explain your yes or no, then I will know how to explain the ground problem to you.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

13

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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Quote:
How about if those other strands were not cut off, but were installed in another lug?

I have never seen a residential panel with more than one spot per leg for a feeder wire. So I would question it. Also I would be concerned about the exposure of uninsulated wire that there would need to be in order to separate strands in the service entrance wires. Something that does not apply to the grounding wire scenario.

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14

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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phinsperger wrote:
If strands are cut off feeder then the total capacity of the wire is reduced. I would not accept that.


I agree with that.

phinsperger wrote:
Also I would be concerned about the exposure of uninsulated wire that there would need to be in order to separate strands in the service entrance wires. Something that does not apply to the grounding wire scenario.


But would you be concerned about the conductor being in two separate terminals?

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Jerry Peck
South Florida
15

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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Jerry,


That in its self would not concern me. What would concern me is;

1) Was the panel modified to this configuration
2) Lack of proper insulation up to the lugs
3) Strands not secured in any lug or missing completely

The issue of strands separated and secured into two separated but connected lugs would not concern me.

We are talking about something like this;
![](upload://moO4lKSselGlXnrSzoyXYVD8aw3.jpeg)

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16

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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phinsperger wrote:
The issue of strands separated and secured into two separated but connected lugs would not concern me.


It does concern me. I will, and do, write them up.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
17

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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be unknowns or is there a concrete reason? Haven’t actually come accross one yet. Sounds like you have. So what else are seeing that I’m just not getting.


Like I said, I think that the overall connection would be cooler due to the increased surface area of contact.

Joe T., do what do you think about all this?

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18

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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I agreed with Bob Badger and I agree with you. I will add more later as to why.

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19

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Paul,


I've seen this a few times, and one terminal is always loose, meaning the conductor size is now reduced by the number of strands in the loose terminal. Sometimes, you will have two loose terminals.

This is because they are trying to fit a too large conductor into too small of a terminal. When they split the conductor strands, they do so with as short of a section as possible, and try to cram and bend from one terminal to another, with the conductor sets of strands (one or both sets) going into the terminal at an angle and not allowing the terminal screw to be properly tightened down on the conductor.

I've never seen any good come from this.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

20

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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There a lot of things that you can do in the electrical trade that will work, but are still violations of the code, occasionally there may be no direct answer to why we can not do something.


Splitting the strands is a often used short cut, I would be willing to bet there are tens of thousands of panels in the US that have split strands, just like there are many thousands of double tapped breakers.

Almost never will either cause problems.

But they are violations and they should tip off anyone looking at this work that the installer does not know or respect the code.

It could also indicate a disregard for safety and professionalism.

You want a reason this could be failed by am electrical inspector?

110.3(B)

The terminal is listed for a certain size maximum conductor.

Splitting a conductor does not change the size of the conductor.

A conductor that was manufactured and listed as 4 AWG can not be converted in the field to become two 8 AWG conductors.

With the strands split there is also a violation of 310.4, conductors in parallel.

Is this being picky?

I do not think so, I can not pick and choose which code rules I want to follow.

All that said, they make a very inexpensive device to connect lager conductors on these types of terminal bars.

A professional would use one.

I will step off the soap[ box now. ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)

Bob

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