Migrant labor camp?
Do those palaces have electric or even water heaters?
[quote=“wcollier, post:60, topic:95310”]
You want to talk about codes? sure lets do that. There are people that live in these. What would your inspection report look like?
http://www.nachi.org/forum/http://i59.tinypic.com/2vw78s9.jpg
[quote=“Robert_R.Sheppard, post:12, topic:95310”]
Materials and methods of application used for recovering or replacing an existing roof covering shall comply with the requirements of Chapter 15 of the *Florida Building Code, Building *or Chapter 9 of the *Florida Building Code, Residential. *Roof repairs to existing roofs and roof coverings shall comply with the provisions of this code.
After reading through your rantings, I see the code states methods for R or R are to follow chapter 9 for home, but… your underlined section states “this code”, not section 9 of the residential book, this code meaning section 611 of the existing.
It basically says whatever materials and means of attaching them to the building should follow either the section 15 B or 9 R for proper application. That’s just for the materials used, not the whole damn roof system.
I am under the impression you think it refers to the residential 9 as “this code”.
If that’s the case I feel you are interpreting it wrong. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Under that it specifically states fastener deck requirements in section 611.7.1 for residential structures.
While applications of all new materials should follow chapter 9 or 15 respectively, recovering is apparently allowed according to this code, as long as the current underlying means of attachment and materials are compliant with current standards, as stated by 611 or “this code”
Obviously if the roof is older it can’t comply with fastener requirements so it has to be torn off to do so. If the roof does comply, then recovering is obviously allowed.
Wayne I don’t think he is capable of actually inspecting something like this. His brain could melt down. Code is irrelevant in this situation for most things. Past performance and deterioration/wear and tear are most important.
This is not a labor camp. This is a poverty stricken area I did some photos on because I was in the area. The County and City are fully aware of the situation. Had no reason to inspect just wanted to document conditions that are in the very same County a world away from everyone else. People could be here because of bad decisions or just fate. If you condemn the house because of code violations where will they go? They would rather be here than anywhere else. A roof over their head, running water, a heat source and in other words a shelter. You can quote codes all you like but if this is functioning as intended does not mean it has to be pretty.
I agree
So if you nail a new layer, properly then the underlying layer is not nailed to the current standard? I always assumed the nails went through both layers. What am I missing?
[quote=“sfogarty, post:63, topic:95310”]
The OP was in reference to recovering over an existing roof covering. Can we agree on that?
And yes, you are wrong. “this code” refers to repairs only to “existing roofs”…the last sentence applies to the definition of repair in “this code” but states also at what point and extent the roofing system can be repaired or is required to be replaced. At the point of recovering or replacement, the materials and attachment must be compliant with the FBC:R…for HI’s as we are only licensed to inspect residential properties.
**REPAIR. **The patching, restoration and/or minor replacement of materials, elements, components, equipment and/or fixtures for the purposes of maintaining such materials, elements, components, equipment and/or fixtures in good or sound condition.
Just to confuse you more, the FBC:R and the FBC:B are inclusive of each other, but you must reference the title sections as “in addition to” under exemptions in chapter 1. If you read it through, you will see most of the codes are direct copies…with most coming from the IRC.
The existing building code gives the perameters for repair and/or replacement including the applicable title sections, it’s really that simple. This is covered under 611.1 inclusive of 611.1.1. But we must also consider 611.2, right? The part that applies to the “structure” of the roof is included in reroofing…did you catch that one?
Another area to consider, 611.3 section 5 under exemptions seems to allow for elastomeric applications over shingles…but not really…as only with approval, and no such approval exists from any shingle manufacturer that I know of.
The application of a second roof covering over an existing is not practical or feasible unless the first covering is new and has been installed to the current building code…what’s the point? Just like the code seems to allow for elastomeric over shingles when we all know that’s just not practical and no approval exists for such application.
Try this, call a shingle manufacturer and tell them wat part of the country you are in and that you intened to apply their product over and existing roof covering of unknown origin…I have…
…at the point of recovering an existing roofing system, the original system becomes what?
Using your thought process, one could just nail down the shingles through the underlayment and that would qualify as a properly attached underlayment?
R905.2.2</B> **Slope. **
Asphalt shingles shall only be used on roof slopes of two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (2:12) or greater. For roof slopes from two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (2:12) up to four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (4:12), two layers of underlayment complying with ASTM D 226, Type I or Type II, ASTM D 4869, Type I or Type II or ASTM D 6757 is required in accordance with Section R905.2.7.
***R905.2.7</B> Underlayment application.
***For roof slopes from two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (17-percent slope), up to four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope), two layers of underlayment complying with ASTM D 226 Type I or Type II, ASTM D 4869 Type I or Type II, or ASTM D 6757 shall be applied in the following manner:
- Apply a minimum 19-inch-wide (483 mm) strip of underlayment felt parallel with and starting at the eaves. 2. Starting at the eave, apply 36-inch-wide (914 mm) sheets of underlayment overlapping successive sheets 19 inches (483 mm). Distortions in the underlayment shall not interfere with the ability of the shingles to seal. 3. End laps shall be offset by 6 feet (1829 mm). 4. Corrosion resistant fasteners are to be applied along the overlap at a maximum spacing of 36 inches (914 mm) on center.
For roof slopes of four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope) or greater, one layer of underlayment complying with ASTM D 226 Type I or Type II, ASTM D 4869 Type I or Type II, or ASTM D 6757 shall be applied in the following manner: 1. Underlayment shall be applied shingle fashion, parallel to and starting from the eave and lapped 2 inches (51 mm). 2. End laps shall be offset by 6 feet (1829 mm). 3. Corrosion resistant fasteners are to be applied along the overlap at a maximum spacing of 36 inches (914 mm) on center.
Correct. When properly fastening shingles, not only do the nails secure the shingle your nailing on, but also the upper edge of the shingle below. If proper length nails are used to fully penetrate the decking, then pre-existing shingles would have a total of 24 individual nails securing them to the roof sheathing. :shock:
FALSE! Read above…
How is this false??? There is nothing you posted above that speaks of or displays nailing of shingles.
Furthermore, what I posted is correct truthful information. How many roofs have you put on chief?? I’ve done a few.
You are obviously not on the same page.
A shingle roof covering is inclusive of the underlayment, no?
At the point of recovering an existing roof covering the first application becomes the underlayment inclusive of the added roof covering…in your vast experience as a roofing contractor, is the underlayment attached in the same fashion as the shingles?
You could make a somewhat reasonable argument that the existing shingles would then be fashioned as applicable to the code if the new application was within the requirement of attachment…but the code also specifically states the type, length, head size, and proper application of the fastener that secures the shingle in place as in direct contact with the applied shingle, so back to square one…you are wrong. You can actually see a diagram of this in RAS 115 which most shingle manufacturer’s apply themselves to for installation.
Roof coverings are inclusive of the underlayment, that includes attachment. I shouldn’t have to tell you this. In no case, does RAS 115 allow for recovering of an existing roof covering unless provisions of uplift are meet, good luck with that. Most coastal counties have adopted the minimum requirements of this standard even though they are outside of what is thought to be the HVHZ. Martin and Palm Beach counties being just a few examples…
This being said, the underlayment has strict fastening requirements relative to their specific ASTM application…And you can’t accomplish this by nailing through two layers of shingles.
[quote=“Robert_R.Sheppard, post:68, topic:95310”]
Yes, repairs is correct at the beginning.
It also states after 611.3 that residential roofs are exempt from this section. Whether that means the entire section or that specific paragraph is unclear.
611.2 talks about load carrying capabilities, but neither you or I are going to calculate that one. The trusses are generally designed to take far more weight than 1 layer of shingles.
The fact still remains that if the first roof covering is compliant, then it can be re-roofed. The manufacture may disagree.
We have homes here that one county omits ridge vents due to concerns for water entry during the next storm event. That either reduces the roof warranty or voids it all together. It is still allowed by the AHJ
Also FYI, here is a link to owens corning class a shingles where it says recovering is an acceptable means. It does not state which areas of the country.
http://www.owenscorning.com/NetworkShare/Roofing/20475-H-3-Tab-Shingles-Installation-Instruction.pdf
but then you should read the shingle warranty here…http://www.owenscorning.com/NetworkShare/Roofing/10017303-Rfg-Essen-Lifetime-Limited-Wrrnty.pdf
It states that 1. all prior roof materials should be removed. Even though the above papers say you can cover over.
It also says you must use 3 of the 6 listed accessory applications for the warranty to be valid. So u must use their hip and ridge shingles or the warranty is void.
Trying to file a legitimate claim on a roof is not going to happen most of the time.
[quote=“sfogarty, post:74, topic:95310”]
611.1 sets the standard for the rest of that section…Residential or Building. Like I said, they are inclusive and should be viewed as in addition to when referenced as exempt. I have said this 3 times…what part isn’t making sense to you?
611.2 is telling you if there is damage to the nominal and wind load bearing structure, the rafters/trusses, they need to be repaired before application of the roof covering so as to provide adequate support. Inclusive of other arrangements…
As for your last paragraph: Nope, read below…
102.1 General. Where there is a conflict between a general requirement and a specific requirement, the specific requirement shall be applicable. Where, in any specific case, different sections of this code specify different materials, methods of construction or other requirements, the most restrictive shall govern.
And lets not forget…
R903.1 General. Roof decks shall be covered with *approved *roof coverings secured to the building or structure in accordance with the provisions of this chapter. Roof assemblies shall be designed and installed in accordance with this code and the approved manufacturer’s installation instructions such that the roof assembly shall serve to protect the building or structure.
So, when it comes to conflict of the Building Code and manufacturer’s installation instructions…the most stringent application applies…if the code says yes, and the manufacturer says no…which application is more stringent?**
**
…you do realize OC sells shingles in more than one state? I know this because they were a supplier to my family for over 30 years. At one time, besides Gale, we were one of their largest buyers. You know this company, it’s now called American/Gale Insulation. American was our business before they merged in the late 90’s.
my comment has absolutely nothing to do with code what so ever.
Let me say it slower for you. 12 nails plus 12 nails =24 nails.
If you take an existing shingle and nail over it, you now have 24 nails in 1 shingle.
That was what I stated, no codes no rules no book. Simple math. :roll:
Sorry to interrupt here but is it allowed to install a second layer with a permit?
The circumstance could vary. In the example I posted with a ridge vent missing, the AHJ overruled the manufacturer.
How about agreeing with me that yes you can cover over a roof as long as the underlying roof is compliant.