James
Which phony uniform will you be wearing? The SS uniform or the Luftwaffe uniform, or will you settle on the Nazi arm band only? Decisions, decisions, decisions… :mrgreen:
Deleted…too tacky, even for me.
MSNBC.comErrors, fraud mar vets’ oral histories
References to nonexistent Medals of Honor pulled from federal Web site
By Mike Stuckey
Senior news editor
MSNBC
updated 9:08 p.m. CT, Tues., Sept. 18, 2007
A seven-year, multimillion-dollar effort by the Library of Congress to gather American veterans’ personal war stories is peppered with inaccurate information and fraudulent claims of heroism, critics say, casting doubt on its value as a historical record.
Staffers at the Veterans History Project on Tuesday were hastily removing from the project’s Web site a number of references that bestowed the nation’s highest military honor on soldiers who never won it, confirmed Matt Raymond, the library’s director of communications.
The incorrect Medal of Honor listings are just the tip of the iceberg in a collection of 50,000 oral and written histories that also includes numerous other errors regarding everything from lesser medals to rank attained and whether or not the soldier was ever a prisoner of war, according to outside experts on the database.
“You can’t tell what’s historical fact and what’s not,” said Mary Schantag of POW Network, a Skidmore, Mo.-based group that tracks information on U.S. prisoners of war and exposes fraudulent POW claims. “It’s a terrible tragedy. They’ve spent millions of dollars trying to record these stories, and they have no way of knowing which ones are true or not.”
Tuesday’s scrubbing of the Web site came as the result of a story by John Hoellwarth published online in the Marine Corps Times. Using information provided by Medal of Honor expert Doug Sterner, Hoellwarth’s story named 24 men who were listed on the Veterans History Project Web site as Medal of Honor recipients but who did not receive the award.
Permanently established by Congress in 1863, the Medal of Honor is given only for the highest acts of valor in combat by members of the U.S. armed services. For all the millions of soldiers, sailors and fliers who have fought under the American flag in the past 144 years, the medal has been awarded to just 3,463. There are only 109 living recipients of the medal. Just two have been awarded during the Iraq war, both posthumously to men who sacrificed their lives to save their fellow soldiers.
Hoellwarth, who has outed numerous phony military heroes over the past two years, starting with a fake two-star general in Louisiana, was stunned by Sterner’s data. “This Library of Congress stuff, I’ve never seen anything like it. That’s incredible,” said Hoellwarth, who served with the Marines during the invasion of Iraq.
The library’s Raymond told msnbc.com that “as soon as this issue was brought to our attention, the staff immediately began to do some additional verification measures.” Raymond called the erroneous Medal of Honor listings “largely the result of innocent mistakes,” such as transcription errors or faulty recollections.
Sterner and Schantag were not buying that. First, Sterner pointed out, the Veterans History Project only contained histories of 49 purported Medal of Honor recipients, meaning just shy of half were incorrect. In addition, they said, their review showed at least 32 participants in the project were wrongly credited with Distinguished Service Crosses out of 100 such listings, and 14 out of 150 entries improperly claimed the Navy Cross. And of 144 participants who said they were Vietnam-era POWs, at least 45 were not, they said.
“Clerical errors to this extent are unsatisfactory,” Sterner said. “While everyone may make a mistake now and then, when 50 percent of the individuals listed by the Library of Congress as Medal of Honor recipients are not, that is gross negligence if the fault is even partially due to data entry errors.”
Inflated résumés and outright lies
Sterner, himself a decorated Vietnam vet, and Schantag, whose husband was wounded while serving as a Marine in Vietnam, said they believe what they’ve uncovered on the Library of Congress Web site is part of a virtual epidemic of former service members inflating their war records and lying about their honors.
“Over the last 10 years, I’ve had to deal with hundreds of these people on a regular basis,” said Sterner, a Denver community college professor who runs a Web site devoted to honoring genuine recipients of the Medal of Honor. “I try not to get too involved in these things because my real deal is to tell the story of the real heroes, but when the fakers come up, they have to be dealt with.”
Sterner recently helped expose the fraudulent Vietnam service resume of a Massachusetts Indian tribe leader, Glenn Marshall, and pushed for passage of last year’s Stolen Valor Act, which now makes it a federal crime to claim military honors that one did not receive.
Raymond said that although the Veterans History Project has a staff of 25 and an annual budget of $2.5 million, veterans’ recollections are gathered entirely by unpaid volunteers. Project director Bob Patrick told the Marine Times that information about medals is not checked before it is published, although some attempts to verify Medal of Honor claims have been made “in the past,” the last some 18 months ago.
But Raymond said serious checking “would be impossible” anyway. “There are 50,000 oral histories that are involved in the Veterans History Project, it’s got a very small staff and it gets at the philosophical underpinning of what an oral history project is. … It’s not intended to be a historical record. They are personal, firsthand accounts.”
Sterner said it would be easy to check Medal of Honor claims since the list of all recipients is widely published on the Internet. And Schantag said that the names of the 691 American servicemen known to have been held as POWs by North Vietnam and to have returned alive to the United States also can be easily found.
They agreed that other commonly fraudulent military claims, such as whether or not soldiers served in special forces, what medals and ranks they attained, and what battles they fought in, can only be verified by obtaining official service records. As a start, they argue for the creation of a national database to compile and list the awards.
An additional safeguard
And Schantag said that the Library of Congress could easily require participants in the Veterans History Project to fill out paperwork authorizing release of their entire service records in the event that questions are raised about their accounts.
While they applaud the intent behind the Veterans History Project and the vast majority of its content, they also point to suspicious accounts of heroics on the Library of Congress Web site and elsewhere that sound like scenes from a “Rambo” movie, medal collections that don’t jibe with campaign ribbons, and other possibly fraudulent material.
Hoellwarth said military fakery seems to occur in cycles and can often spark big news stories on the local level. He has been surprised at the lack of response so far to his story on the Veterans History Project. “I thought it was gong to go nuclear. I get up this morning, nothing.”
Schantag was happy to see the story and whatever attention results from it because “these phonies are changing history and somebody’s got to stand up and say this is wrong. … The more you meet the real heroes, the more you meet the young men coming home from Iraq missing limbs, and then you see these stories and then you hear these claims, you get madder and madder.”
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This whole thread is now completely outta this world.
Jim-Your getting a bit overboard. Its now overshadowing the good of veterans day. Do not construe this as trying to stifle your feelings on this issue but somehow the original intent of your post seems lost.
Curt
Curt,
Perhaps I have over reacted to the mental midgets who took the position that one who asks a person to validate what he publishes, regarding his military history and accomplishments, has done something wrong.
As you can see from the many, many internet pages addressing theft of valor, it is far from being an isolated problem and people are being encouraged to look deeper into claims made by certain people that cannot be substantiated.
When we looked into John Bowman’s remarks concerning parts of his military history, we found that there were portions of it that were denied as being true by military sources.
John has a few friends here, on the message board, who will overlook these discrepancies. I represent those who do not.
I have a son in the Army, serving his second tour in Afghanistan. It really brings my blood pressure up a notch or two to stop and think that there are people surrounding him in the hills who want to kill him — but it is even worse to think of the fellow American slimeballs who want to steal his honor.
Sorry for going overboard, Curt. Like I said, some numbnuts threatened to resign and filed an ethics complaint very early in this thread claiming that I did something wrong by asking someone to validate what they published. I think it is clear that, in light of the widespread thefts of valor going on in these times, that we all have a duty to those who are heroes — to validate the wannabes.
James if you are so sure of your allegations, why haven’t you contacted the authorities?
Can we brainstorm hobbies for James? He apparently spends too much time here if his blood is boiling…
Fishing, mall-walking, bike riding, reading,
I have not totally decided that I won’t.
His false claims to being assigned to Special Forces were vague enough to allow him “wriggling room” if he were turned in. In all, they were still false.
The office maintaining official records of all Americans in all branches ever assigned to Special Forces verified, to two members who inquired, that they have never heard of John Bowman and have no one by that name in their files.
His published list of medals and decorations, on the other hand, are more specific. He has offered to validate them in the past, but never came through.
How many legitimately decorated heroes do you know that would intentionally leave doubt as to the validity of their record of service?
As I have stated before, I do not have proof that his list of medals and awards is inflated. I only have suspicion, based on how these medals relate to his false implications of Special Forces membership.
As others have pointed out and as is standard military practice…an entitlement to a decoration is readily available to every legitimate recipient.
Frankly, it would take more effort for one to validate his full membership status to NACHI than to validate his entitlement to the Navy Distinguished Service Medal.
James I wonder why you feel you need to post your Dirty laundry on the NACHI site .
Most try to give help or ask questions on Home Inspection.
Many times you post things that are great and helpfull but then you turn around and seem to try and cause difficulties.
We are not a Police Force to made decisions that should be left up too the authorities.
… Cookie
.
I have never served in the Armed Forces. To those that did, Welcome Home!
Too often nowadays we hear of modern day ‘heroes’ & courageous folk that do things such as challenge the American flag or the Pledge of Allegiance. I remind my children who the real heroes in this country’s history are: The boys in the Ardennes, the boys in the Battle of the Bulge, the boys storming the beaches of Normandy, at the Chosin Resevoir, in the jungles of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and awful hell holes that you don’t read about or see in the news.
For these boys I am grateful and thank you for what you have provided for me.
James, you got someone who agrees with you, I got a reddie for my response… ha
I am laughing…I mean, I am holding my sides and have tears in my beard…this is the most hilarious moronic act in weeks.
The guy who posted this threadhas accused me of being a Nazi for suggesting that someone publishing a list of military honors provide validation for them.
Your imbecilic timing is impeccable, Mr. Wand.
James
You sure have a knack for making an *** of yourself. Try as you might you cannot quite try and explain your rational for your outlandish behaviour. Quite frankly your an embarrassment to Nachi.
I think you are in the wrong profession you should have been a drama queen.
And you are…?
Jamesy
Asking what type of uniform you like to wear doesn’t mean you’re a Nazi any more than wearing a dress means you are a woman.
Maybe you like to wear uniforms to be kinky, people do have kinks ya know, the Nazi’s had a lot of kinks.
Having been following both of you and your post’s in my mind there is No comparision on how Ray tends to Help many people and he does not try to get involved in things that should be left to the laws of the land to look after.
… Cookie
Roy,
This is a long-standing point of contention for Jim and others on this message board. As Veterans Day is approaching, Jim has decided to make his point, once again.
He is entitled to his view on the matter, especially as Jim is also a decorated veteran. We have lots of them here at NACHI. The point is to honor all who served. But, if you make a claim, you should be able to validate it.
James seems to have a lot of contentious issues. 